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Ring of Improved Invisibility [2002 Thread]
- Thread starter Bobbystopholes
- Start date
kreynolds
First Post
RogueJK said:
As has been discussed previously, a Ring of True Strike, activated at will, unlimited charges, is perfectly legal. You simply rule that the ring is activated via mental thought as a standard action, and Voila!, the ring works pefectly and is well balanced within the system.
You'll note that just about the only rings that grant continuous benefits are usually defensive or utilitarian, such as a Ring of Resist Elements or a Ring of Haste.
nwn_deadman
First Post
kreynolds said:
You really think that a +20 to hit, even if it is only good 1 time per day is worth 360 gp?
Gee, let me see if there are any players in your area that don't like you
Hehe. I have only one response to that:
As a player, I'd probably make 100 of those suckers, and pass handfuls of them out to the whole group. Too useful.
It's important that a DM think twink, when pricing items.
As for Unlimited Wishes: I ran a high high level campaign one time, and one guy had a Rod of Limited Wish, 3/day. Really did feel like an item from Amber.
As for Improved Invisibility:
Take a look at Boots of Speed or the Cloak of Displacement. That is, either harshly limit the rounds of use per day (10 is pretty good), or charge maybe 2.5X what the formula says the effect is worth.
(Improved Invisibility should be restricted this way because the effect is really powerful, *and* it only usually lasts a few rounds.)
Thanee
First Post
When you judge the general usefulness of unlimited invisibility and unlimited improved invisibility about the same (of course, improved invisibility is much more useful, but that's already covered in the higher spell level), then you could calculate the cost like this:
20,000 gp (cost of ring of invisibility) x 4x7 (spell level x caster level of improved invisibility) / 2x3 (spell level x caster level of invisibility) = 93,333 gp
I would certainly add a little amount, since improved invisibility really seems even more useful in unlimited uses compared to invisibility, pricing it at 120,000 gp.
But a word of warning, an item like this will most probably create some changes in your metagame. Opponents will be more likely to have means to counter your invisibility with blind fighting, blindsight, see invisibility or similar abilities. Actually it's not a bad idea for any higher level character to have means to counter invisibility, since it is a rather potent ability really!
Save your money for a rod of true resurrect! Now that's a truely broken item!
The ring of unlimited wishes is probably worse, tho... Oh well...
Bye
Thanee
20,000 gp (cost of ring of invisibility) x 4x7 (spell level x caster level of improved invisibility) / 2x3 (spell level x caster level of invisibility) = 93,333 gp
I would certainly add a little amount, since improved invisibility really seems even more useful in unlimited uses compared to invisibility, pricing it at 120,000 gp.
But a word of warning, an item like this will most probably create some changes in your metagame. Opponents will be more likely to have means to counter your invisibility with blind fighting, blindsight, see invisibility or similar abilities. Actually it's not a bad idea for any higher level character to have means to counter invisibility, since it is a rather potent ability really!
Save your money for a rod of true resurrect! Now that's a truely broken item!
The ring of unlimited wishes is probably worse, tho... Oh well...
Bye
Thanee
Improved Invis.
As has been pointed out a billion times, the item creation rules are only rough guildines. They are not meant to be hard and fast rules, and all items thinkable by using them are not automatically "part of the core rules".
For simple items, or very similar items to existing ones, they provide a convenient way to DM's to quickly come up with a price that is balanced through theoretically previous playtesting. This applies nicely to the skill bonus, abilitiy bonus, and non-abusive spell items (I'm just talking wonderous items here, since others are bit more clear cut).
Now, as it even says in the core rules (so is "part of the core rules") and has been repeated by the creators, some items have been adjusted because they far more powerful than the pricing would suggest by following the equations (or, rarely, less powerful). There is no quick and easy formulae for adjusting the price and availability of these items, and it is left up to the DM's judgment and common sense to figure out something appropriate for his or her campaign.
A useful guidline suggested by many, including the creators, is to compare to existing items that seem of roughly equivalent power level. This is usually better than coming up some sort of multiple of the calculated cost, though even this can be difficult too with some weird items that are hard to compare.
OK, enough with the generlized lecture. As regards a ring of improved invisibility, I think the easiest way to price this item would be to base it on the ring of invisiblity and up the price by a sufficient "power boost" cost.
One good way to start the analysis would be to look at the two spells themselves and compare them. Besides being 2 levels higher (or double the level depending on your perspective) it has a significantly shorter duration. This is pretty big difference, and although you can argue that the improved invis is still fairly long lasted at a minimum of 7 minutes, it will typically only be one combat per casting (we only need to look at combat here, since that is the only important difference between invisibility and improoved invis.). So, a 4th level spell that only lasts one combat, though all attacks in that combat, vs. a 2nd level spell that lasts potentially hours, or just until the first strike. To me this suggests at least a doubling in price from invisiblity, but that's just a first analysis.
You could also look at who would benefit most from this ring, and what level you expect the characters to get it. Once you start getting around 12th level it might not be such a big deal since invisibility purge, dispel magic, blindsight, scent, true seeing, etc. are starting to be much more common with foes, and characters at that level often have access to becoming Ethereal with can be much more of a problem is some situations.
Rogues are the most obvious for benefiting the most from this. Now they and a wizard could both use a wand of improved invisibilty to get a similar effect. So lets look at a wand ... 50 charges for around 21000. Wand of invisiblity ... 50 charges for around 4500. Now that's a really big difference in price, and would suggest a bigger price jump to me than just doubling.
Cloak of etherealness, both better and worse than improved invisibilty depending on your goal (immune to attacks, but can't attack) is usable 10 minutes a day and costs 52,000 gp. Ethereal Juant is a 5th level Cleric, 7th level wizard spell, with a shorter duration than improved invisiblity. This seems pretty good item to compare to I would think.
My end opinion after all this blathering? I think I would allow a 10 minutes per day ring of improved invisibilty fo 50,000, unlimited closer to 70,000 - although this could go up or down, 10 minutes a day is often unlimited, just stops you from going around all the time invisible, but that could cause rollplaying problems anyway if handled right (your party can't see you either).
Ok, there's a long winded, potentially useless, analyses of the whole situation. Just though I'd add my 2000000 cents.
As has been pointed out a billion times, the item creation rules are only rough guildines. They are not meant to be hard and fast rules, and all items thinkable by using them are not automatically "part of the core rules".
For simple items, or very similar items to existing ones, they provide a convenient way to DM's to quickly come up with a price that is balanced through theoretically previous playtesting. This applies nicely to the skill bonus, abilitiy bonus, and non-abusive spell items (I'm just talking wonderous items here, since others are bit more clear cut).
Now, as it even says in the core rules (so is "part of the core rules") and has been repeated by the creators, some items have been adjusted because they far more powerful than the pricing would suggest by following the equations (or, rarely, less powerful). There is no quick and easy formulae for adjusting the price and availability of these items, and it is left up to the DM's judgment and common sense to figure out something appropriate for his or her campaign.
A useful guidline suggested by many, including the creators, is to compare to existing items that seem of roughly equivalent power level. This is usually better than coming up some sort of multiple of the calculated cost, though even this can be difficult too with some weird items that are hard to compare.
OK, enough with the generlized lecture. As regards a ring of improved invisibility, I think the easiest way to price this item would be to base it on the ring of invisiblity and up the price by a sufficient "power boost" cost.
One good way to start the analysis would be to look at the two spells themselves and compare them. Besides being 2 levels higher (or double the level depending on your perspective) it has a significantly shorter duration. This is pretty big difference, and although you can argue that the improved invis is still fairly long lasted at a minimum of 7 minutes, it will typically only be one combat per casting (we only need to look at combat here, since that is the only important difference between invisibility and improoved invis.). So, a 4th level spell that only lasts one combat, though all attacks in that combat, vs. a 2nd level spell that lasts potentially hours, or just until the first strike. To me this suggests at least a doubling in price from invisiblity, but that's just a first analysis.
You could also look at who would benefit most from this ring, and what level you expect the characters to get it. Once you start getting around 12th level it might not be such a big deal since invisibility purge, dispel magic, blindsight, scent, true seeing, etc. are starting to be much more common with foes, and characters at that level often have access to becoming Ethereal with can be much more of a problem is some situations.
Rogues are the most obvious for benefiting the most from this. Now they and a wizard could both use a wand of improved invisibilty to get a similar effect. So lets look at a wand ... 50 charges for around 21000. Wand of invisiblity ... 50 charges for around 4500. Now that's a really big difference in price, and would suggest a bigger price jump to me than just doubling.
Cloak of etherealness, both better and worse than improved invisibilty depending on your goal (immune to attacks, but can't attack) is usable 10 minutes a day and costs 52,000 gp. Ethereal Juant is a 5th level Cleric, 7th level wizard spell, with a shorter duration than improved invisiblity. This seems pretty good item to compare to I would think.
My end opinion after all this blathering? I think I would allow a 10 minutes per day ring of improved invisibilty fo 50,000, unlimited closer to 70,000 - although this could go up or down, 10 minutes a day is often unlimited, just stops you from going around all the time invisible, but that could cause rollplaying problems anyway if handled right (your party can't see you either).
Ok, there's a long winded, potentially useless, analyses of the whole situation. Just though I'd add my 2000000 cents.
Bobbystopholes
First Post
Thanks for the input, everyone.
While I agree that the ring of II is very powerful early on, I completely agree that it ain't so useful later. Most things start to see you anyway!
If I did ask my DM for one, I would make it X time/day for 7 to 10 minutes. Something like that.
As for the discussion about True Strike, it isn't that powerful. You get +20 one round after you cast it. Same thing for a 360gp 1 time/day ring. If it were a potion it would be 50gp. If you are an archer, just get the bow of True Arrows for S&F. Cast it at will. It's a +1 Mighty Composite Longbow (+1) and costs only 4000gp. That's a mighty good savings. Course, you can't pass those rings out to all your friends.
At high levels, when you have 2 or 3 or more attacks per round, to waste one whole round to activate the ring then use one shot, well you just cost yourself 5 other hits that probably would have got the guy anyway.
Enough about True Strike, the Ring of II sounds pretty good. I'll look in T&B and go to my DM about it.
Thanks!
While I agree that the ring of II is very powerful early on, I completely agree that it ain't so useful later. Most things start to see you anyway!
If I did ask my DM for one, I would make it X time/day for 7 to 10 minutes. Something like that.
As for the discussion about True Strike, it isn't that powerful. You get +20 one round after you cast it. Same thing for a 360gp 1 time/day ring. If it were a potion it would be 50gp. If you are an archer, just get the bow of True Arrows for S&F. Cast it at will. It's a +1 Mighty Composite Longbow (+1) and costs only 4000gp. That's a mighty good savings. Course, you can't pass those rings out to all your friends.
At high levels, when you have 2 or 3 or more attacks per round, to waste one whole round to activate the ring then use one shot, well you just cost yourself 5 other hits that probably would have got the guy anyway.
Enough about True Strike, the Ring of II sounds pretty good. I'll look in T&B and go to my DM about it.
Thanks!
