Ring of Mettle

[Shadeus]

Are you kidding? You may the claim that because the item isn't as good for every class, it should have its price lowered? That's like saying that Ring of Wizardry should cost less because my Fighter can't use it or that a Cloak of Charisma should cost less gold for everyone because some of the classes couldn't care less about Charisma. You can't claim balance based on sub-optimal choices, you need to base the price off of someone who would realistically want to buy it (i.e. not someone with terrible Fort and Will saves). And you've built an unrealistic argument anyway. Its absolutely absurd, in my experience, to find a 10th-level wizard with no Con bonus (they don't live to 10th level on a d4 hit dice without a Con bonus unless the enemies are really stupid, and players pretty much always put their second best stat in Con for a Wizard), so a Realistic 10th-level wizard has a Fort save of +7 or +8.

I didn't think the price should be lowered, I thought it should be the same. But that was before ARandomGod reminded me that it works for both Fort and Will saves. I thought it was just Fort.

Clearly the Ring of Mettle would be a serious problem worn by a Monk, and basic unstoppableness would come into play if it was some sort of Paladin/Monk with good Charisma. A Pal3/Mnk6/Brd1 who is working to make use of Ring of Mettle will buy a Cloak of Resistance to help and take the save feats, so unless you play 25-point-buy, she will have *at least* +18 to all saves. I agree completely that the DCs are likely to be approximately 19-20, so it looks like the saves are not going to fail very often. And this is without stat buffs items for the relevant stats.

That's definitely an impressive character. I statted it out myself and you can get +18 to all your saves. But you really have to sacrifice other aspects of the character to do it. You either need to blow half your cash for a 10th-level character on a cloak of resistance +5 or use 3 of your 5 feats (if you are human) on the "save" feats to get this character.

But now you have a naked paladin/bard/monk with an impressive cha, dex, will, and con! That same cleric could also cast righteous might and likely give her a good lump on the head regardless of how good her saves are!

You are right, it is definitely impressive, but not game breaking. Two-and-a-half to three times the ring of evasion costs sounds about right to me.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Maybe it's just me, but ref saves aren't really that scary in my opinion. All they do is damage.
Anything that reduces save or die (and many enchantments are exactly that) spells is just great. That's because DnD doesn't reduce your ability depending on damage. A Monk 10 with one hp is just as effective at kicking others as one with full hps. The same Monk been dominated or failing a Slay Living is something else.

Isn't that like saying "Weapons aren't that scary. All they do is damage."?

The domination example doesn't work, because a successful save negates. Failing a slay living is bad, but a ring of mettle won't change that. It allows you to avoid the damage that comes even if you make the save. But if, as you say, damage isn't all that scary, then that is not a very big benefit.

 

[Rystil Arden]

All I can say is that my game includes a level 18 Paladin of Freedom/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker who has good enough saves to consistently save against whatever comes his way (+6 Charisma item and started with high Charisma, plus good enough Wisdom and Dexterity and Cloak of Resistance maxed out, so even though he wasn't mainly going for saves [and his combat abilities are thus unhindered], his saves are Fort +32 Ref +20 Will +20 [or more against most effects thanks to Rage/Frenzy]). Thanks to Deathless Frenzy, the only way to overcome him in combat is from the 5d6 partial on Disintegrate or to hope he gets unlucky on a Will save (usually he needs about a 3 to save thanks to +4 against most Will effects) or rolls a 1 on a Fort. If a Ring of Mettle became available to him, then retreat would become the only option for enemies. Also, the Circlet of Persuasion is not a Cloak of Charisma. It doesn't raise Charisma, it only gives a skill bonus, which isn't the same (although the effect is identical for some characters).

 

[Al]

Rystil, your point seems to hinge on the fact that if a halfling Paladin/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker etc. got a hand on one of these rings then he'd be nigh unstoppable. However, this begs the question: what if he actually took a level of Pious Templar? Would this really make him an unstoppable death machine? Or would clever tactics and use of spells negate his power (Forcecage, Irresistable Dance, Maze etc.)? I don't buy the argument that *any* non-epic build is somehow invincible against magic-using opponents of its CR, particularly at high level. Moreover, just because one build is broken, this does not entail that the entire get-up was out of kilter. The same was true of the Spell Focus 3.5 nerf, predicated on the notion that DCs were too high for people with Greater Spell Focus, Red Wizard and Archmage.

Personally, I think that a Ring of Mettle is worth only as much as a Ring of Evasion, because the number of Fort partial spells are fewer than Ref half, and the number of Will partial spells are nearly none - Harm and the Holy Smite variations being the only notable ones that come to mind. In lieu, however, of the fact that it is a custom-made item that replicates an unusual ability, I could see an argument for, at most, x1.5 a Ring of Evasion, or x2. I can't see it going much above that: for the same price (x2), you could get a +5 deflection bonus to AC which is probably more useful in the long run.

 

[ARandomGod]

Also, the Circlet of Persuasion is not a Cloak of Charisma. It doesn't raise Charisma, it only gives a skill bonus, which isn't the same (although the effect is identical for some characters).

I know... that was my point however. There IS a magic item which helps people out exactly the same as a cloak of charisma +6 would for cheaper, BUT only if they're characters who won't really benifit from a charisma bonus.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Rystil, your point seems to hinge on the fact that if a halfling Paladin/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker etc. got a hand on one of these rings then he'd be nigh unstoppable. However, this begs the question: what if he actually took a level of Pious Templar? Would this really make him an unstoppable death machine? Or would clever tactics and use of spells negate his power (Forcecage, Irresistable Dance, Maze etc.)? I don't buy the argument that *any* non-epic build is somehow invincible against magic-using opponents of its CR, particularly at high level. Moreover, just because one build is broken, this does not entail that the entire get-up was out of kilter. The same was true of the Spell Focus 3.5 nerf, predicated on the notion that DCs were too high for people with Greater Spell Focus, Red Wizard and Archmage.

Personally, I think that a Ring of Mettle is worth only as much as a Ring of Evasion, because the number of Fort partial spells are fewer than Ref half, and the number of Will partial spells are nearly none - Harm and the Holy Smite variations being the only notable ones that come to mind. In lieu, however, of the fact that it is a custom-made item that replicates an unusual ability, I could see an argument for, at most, x1.5 a Ring of Evasion, or x2. I can't see it going much above that: for the same price (x2), you could get a +5 deflection bonus to AC which is probably more useful in the long run.

Multiclassing into Pious Templar is not a good analogy for this item. If the character takes a level in Pious Templar, there is a significant opportunity cost. He has to qualify and take levels in the class instead of something else. On the other hand, if you make the Ring cost a paltry 10,000 gold for his wizard buddy to make, he can get it easily without giving up anything substantial. Its similar to how Frenzied Berserker itself is not really broken, but an item that gave the Frenzy or Deathless Frenzy abilities would be. The same is true for the Paladin's Divine Grace or the Monk's Wisdom Bonus to AC. I would not want any of these abilities to be duplicated by an item at all because the power of these abilities is balanced by the opportunity cost of being forced to take precious levels in those classes.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Nope. Nay. Negative. Would never allow a Ring of Mettle in any campaign.

 

[Al]

Multiclassing into Pious Templar is not a good analogy for this item. If the character takes a level in Pious Templar, there is a significant opportunity cost. He has to qualify and take levels in the class instead of something else. On the other hand, if you make the Ring cost a paltry 10,000 gold for his wizard buddy to make, he can get it easily without giving up anything substantial. Its similar to how Frenzied Berserker itself is not really broken, but an item that gave the Frenzy or Deathless Frenzy abilities would be. The same is true for the Paladin's Divine Grace or the Monk's Wisdom Bonus to AC. I would not want any of these abilities to be duplicated by an item at all because the power of these abilities is balanced by the opportunity cost of being forced to take precious levels in those classes.

Yet the precedent has already been set with the Ring of Evasion that class abilities can be folded into particular items. The multiclassing as a Pious Templar was more as a rejoinder to your argument that if the character you described took a Ring of Mettle then he would somehow become invincible. Likewise, to argue that there is no opportunity cost for taking a Ring of Mettle is somewhat deceptive. Not only is there the opportunity cost of the gold itself, but there is a further cost insofar as a ring slot is taken, which means that the character cannot buy, say, a Ring of Spell Turning (likely to be as, if not more, useful), a Ring of Evasion or a Ring of Freedom of Movement. There are a few item slots with little opportunity cost (Helmet for non-wizard non-diplomats, Eyes for nearly everyone, Belt for non-meleeists) but the ring slot is extremely valuable.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yet the precedent has already been set with the Ring of Evasion that class abilities can be folded into particular items. The multiclassing as a Pious Templar was more as a rejoinder to your argument that if the character you described took a Ring of Mettle then he would somehow become invincible. Likewise, to argue that there is no opportunity cost for taking a Ring of Mettle is somewhat deceptive. Not only is there the opportunity cost of the gold itself, but there is a further cost insofar as a ring slot is taken, which means that the character cannot buy, say, a Ring of Spell Turning (likely to be as, if not more, useful), a Ring of Evasion or a Ring of Freedom of Movement. There are a few item slots with little opportunity cost (Helmet for non-wizard non-diplomats, Eyes for nearly everyone, Belt for non-meleeists) but the ring slot is extremely valuable.

Invincible doesn't equate to unstoppable. Maze, Forcecage, and Irresistable Dance are all ways to delay the berserker, but none of them kills him. Also, Ring of Spell-Turning fails to work on a surprising number of spells (I couldn't believe that it doesn't stop Polar Ray, but it doesn't), costs almost 100k, and only stops a few spells per day, so that is not a fair comparison (and besides, once the Ring of Spell Turning runs out, you can replace it with a spare Ring of Mettle). Assuming that you are good at making your saves, permanent Mettle to add to your Evasion is nearly if not qually as useful as Spell Turning 3/day (although since this isn't true for the general public, making the Mettle ring cost 60k, less than 2/3 of the Spell Turning, as I suggested, seems reasonable--this price is entirely predicated on assuming that the wearer also has Evasion, but not thinking that way is what has led Wizards to create a good number of overpowered combos using things that weren't broken on their own).