Ring of Sustenance and Spellcaster's rest

[akbearfoot]

I very much like symphony's observations. The recent casting limit rule seems to imply that 'spells per day' does mean 'spells per rest period' And as happens, the ring of sustenance does not cancel out the 8 hour rule. Is it really a good idea to make spell casters book-keep a timer for every single spell slot and have a fun time figuring out the exact time he can sit down for another hour to memorize that extra high level spell slot. Hey guys, lets rest for an hour and a half. We fought that dragon yesterday and I can't get those spells back for another 15 minutes.

'a day' is pretty relative and an extremely wide open to interpret concept, even just in the 3.x universe...There is spells per/day, skills and magic items that have uses per day, or retries per day. There is magic item crafting that requires days per level. There are heal checks that require 24 hour bed rest. All these 'days' are not measured in the same increments of time. Not to mention the strange idea that people seem to have that every game world has the same revolution time as Earth.

There is also a whole slew of class abilities that have per day uses that aren't spells....why wouldn't a barbarian be able to use his rage again after getting a full rest? In this case 2 hours. What difference do players getting to adventure faster make unless you are running a very time sensitive storyline? And it's already been noted that it only affects one person, who is sacrificing a coveted ring slot. It also does not help your healers get their spells back faster since they are granted their spells at specific times of the 'calendar day'. So even though your party could walk an extra 75% furthur in a day because they saved a lot of time, they still cant heal hit points faster...well, unless you have a craptastic bard for a healer

 

[TanisFrey]

The ONLY magic item that explicitly states, that I have seen, that it reduced sleeping/resting time for arcane casters to memorize spells is Heward's Fortifying Bedroll, from Complete Mage. It cost 3,000gp and reduces you sleeping/resting in a half to four hours, but is can only be used once every 2 days. You can trade it between characters if you have 2 arcane spell casters.

 

[Dross]

From the Rules Compendium pg86:
Daily-Use Items
Many magic items have a limited number of uses per day. When the last of these uses is used, that power is no longer available for the day, but the item is still magical and might have other powers available. Unless otherwise noted in an item’s description, any item that has daily uses regains all those uses at dawn each day.

For my group (and for my sense of consistency) all uses of the "per day" phrase are treated this way.

IMHO if spells per day or rages per day were to be treated differently they would need to be spelled out, not have the same phrase to mean different things.

I haven't done a comparison but I wonder if any MIC items that originated in other books are now "renewed at dawn" instead of "per day" in their description (armour property Aporter still has 2/day I notice).

I don't have a copy but I'm sure that there is mention in the FAQ about this.

 

[Quikill]

The rules laid out under "Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions" clearly state that "all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit." This means that "spells per day" translates as spells per 8 hour period (not 24 hour period).
Frankly, who wants to mess with the paper work of memorizing spells but not being able to cast them?

I believe you're misreading this. Any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against her daily spell limit for the next day. This rule is for preparing spells after an encounter during your watch or during the 8 hours before a caster prepares spells. If as an example above states the party gets attacked by a pack of Dire Wolves in the middle of the night any spells cast by the wizard then count against their daily limit for the following day. So if during the encounter the wizard casts 4 spells, then they are not able to prepare spells in the slots that they used during that encounter.

Here is a quote from 'Rules of the Game: Using Magic Items (Part Three)' but it applies here since it defines a 'day' and assumes players can use common sense.

Uses Per Day: Other items work only a certain number of times each day; for example, most rods fall into this category. The rules don't bother defining a "day" for you, and most of us can figure that out on our own. If it ever becomes important, treat a "day" as any contiguous period of 24 hours.

So this pretty much covers spells/day as any caster will be able to use their daily allotment of spells once per 24 hour period regardless of how much rest they get.

 

[Senko]

Personally I house rule it with a combination of things from different editions/places and those in my games can either take it or not play a wizard. As for the ring of sustanence something I think a lot of people miss is that sleep is not the same as rest by which I mean while you can spend an entire day resting you can't spend it sleeping at least not without consequences. So this post is in 2 parts first off my comments on the ring of sustanence and sleeping as dealt with by the rules, secondly how I work wizards in my game.

Part 1

In a standard DnD game where its an hour to rememorize spells sure the ring of sustanence might be a little overpowered for its level but I don't think so since aside from the fact it takes up a ring slot (and remember there are rings/items that can double your spells per day anyway) common sense would say you can only sleep as opposed to rest on the same schedule you normally do. for a human thats generally every 16 hours, 8 hours sleep in a 24 hour day.

So that gives us wake at 2 am, memorize by 3 am, cast by 4 am, rest for 8 HOURS, rememorize by 1 pm, cast by 2 pm, rest for 8 hours, rememorize by 11 pm, cast by 12 pm, OR mess around till 6 pm, sleep till 8 pm, rememorize by 9 pm, cast by 10 pm and then rest until around 4 am the nex day. Worst case scenario a wizard who goes through all their spells within an hour of rememorizing could get their full allotment (assuming you ignore the spells per day rule) a total of 3 times. If they don't cast all their spells within an hour of memorizing them which is more probable they'll only get 1 maybe 2 full allotments of spells.

If someone tried abusing a ring of sustanence by going I sleep 2 hours every time they needed to get spells back I'd say either you toss and turn but can't get to sleep as you aren't tired or after waking your overtired and your slow groggy thought processes can't grasp the complexities of your spells.

Part 2

The way I work it is as follows . . .

1] To rememorize spells a mage has to either get a goods night sleep (note for elves this if 4 hours trance NOT 4 hours trance + 4 hours rest) or rest for 8 hours. This involves relaxing and clearing their mind whether that's by meditating, reading, painting or some other calming method, I allow some leeway here but common sense rules the day for instsance no being on watch, no fighting, nothing that invovles mental and phsycial stress (like some computer games ).

2] Once you've gotten this you then need to spend a further 15 minutes per spell level in game to memorize/prepare the spell so you can cast it quickly i.e. normal casting rules and yes this does mean a mage can cast spells from their spellbook if time allows using that 15 minutes time.

3] Any item that reduces the amount of sleep required also affects the time necessary for spell preparation i.e. a human needs 8 hours sleep with the ring of sustanence they'd only need 2 and then they can memorize spells again. HOWEVER a being can only sleep once per 24 hour period without suffering side effects since its the way their wired. Too much sleep is as bad for the mental processes as too little.

So what does this mean in game well . . .

A first level human wizard sleeps 8 hours and then memorizes his spells (3 cantrips + 2 first level) which takes him another (3 * 1/2 + 2 = 3.5, 3.5 * 15 = 52.5) 52 and a half minutes then he's good to go. If he casts them all he can spend another 52 and a half minutes to rememorize AFTER he's spent 8 hours resting. Assuming he woke at 8 am and cast all his spells by 10 he'd have rememorized them by 7:52 PM which is rather late for adventuring but maybe they'll prove useful if the camps attacked.

After many adventures he's reached 8th level and aquired a ring of sustanence. He then wakes at 2am full rested and ready to rememorize his spells (4 cantrips, 6 first level, 4 second level, 4 third level, 3 fourth level) which now takes (4 * 1/2 + 6 + 4 * 2 + 4 * 2 + 3 * 4 = 2 + 6 + 8 + 12 + 12 = 40, 40 * 15 = 600) 10 hours which mean though he wakes at 2 he's not ready to adventure until 12. In the event that he casts all his spells by 1 he needs to spend 8 hours resting before he can resume rememorizing again which puts him at 9pm he may rememorize a few cantrips and first level spells but the vast bulk of his spell power is still limited to only once per day simpliy because of the time to ready them all when he's run dry.

A 20th level wizard without bonus spells will spend nearly 3 day's (when you factor in resting) rememorizing spells if he's run dry. On the other hand he can always cast from his spellbook which while not effective in combat (siege's excepted) does cover such things as knock or fly if a chasm is blooking your way. Need to open that door the 2nd level knock spell will do it in half an hour or the thief can do it in 30 seconds. Need to teleport to the keep of Kazardain sure give me an hour and a half to set up the teleportation circle or you can spend 3 weeks walking there through bandit infested country.


It works for me and my players haven't complained since I do allow them down time.

 

[Quikill]

Personally I house rule it with a combination of things from different editions/places and those in my games can either take it or not play a wizard. As for the ring of sustanence something I think a lot of people miss is that sleep is not the same as rest by which I mean while you can spend an entire day resting you can't spend it sleeping at least not without consequences. So this post is in 2 parts first off my comments on the ring of sustanence and sleeping as dealt with by the rules, secondly how I work wizards in my game.

Part 1

In a standard DnD game where its an hour to rememorize spells sure the ring of sustanence might be a little overpowered for its level but I don't think so since aside from the fact it takes up a ring slot (and remember there are rings/items that can double your spells per day anyway) common sense would say you can only sleep as opposed to rest on the same schedule you normally do. for a human thats generally every 16 hours, 8 hours sleep in a 24 hour day.

So that gives us wake at 2 am, memorize by 3 am, cast by 4 am, rest for 8 HOURS, rememorize by 1 pm, cast by 2 pm, rest for 8 hours, rememorize by 11 pm, cast by 12 pm, OR mess around till 6 pm, sleep till 8 pm, rememorize by 9 pm, cast by 10 pm and then rest until around 4 am the nex day. Worst case scenario a wizard who goes through all their spells within an hour of rememorizing could get their full allotment (assuming you ignore the spells per day rule) a total of 3 times. If they don't cast all their spells within an hour of memorizing them which is more probable they'll only get 1 maybe 2 full allotments of spells.

If someone tried abusing a ring of sustanence by going I sleep 2 hours every time they needed to get spells back I'd say either you toss and turn but can't get to sleep as you aren't tired or after waking your overtired and your slow groggy thought processes can't grasp the complexities of your spells.

Senko, Part 2 is your own home brew system and if it works for you then great. However; in standard 3.5 d20 where it takes an hour to prepare spells casters only get to do that once per 24 hour period. After that they can rest all they like, but they only get to prepare spells once a day. They can't cast more spells/day than their single daily allotment. If they can prepare spells each time they rest then the limiting factor of spells/day becomes meaningless. A 'day' being any contiguous 24 hour period.

 

[Senko]

Senko, Part 2 is your own home brew system and if it works for you then great. However; in standard 3.5 d20 where it takes an hour to prepare spells casters only get to do that once per 24 hour period. After that they can rest all they like, but they only get to prepare spells once a day. They can't cast more spells/day than their single daily allotment. If they can prepare spells each time they rest then the limiting factor of spells/day becomes meaningless. A 'day' being any contiguous 24 hour period.

So basically if a wizard memorizes their spells at 9 pm before going to bed, the party gets attacked at 4 am and he uses all his spells breaking free before beaten and bloody they stagger into a walled community and finish getting their sleep. He can't do anything except pray that horde gathered outside wont attack until after 9 when he can remorize his spells?

 

[Quikill]

So basically if a wizard memorizes their spells at 9 pm before going to bed, the party gets attacked at 4 am and he uses all his spells breaking free before beaten and bloody they stagger into a walled community and finish getting their sleep. He can't do anything except pray that horde gathered outside wont attack until after 9 when he can remorize his spells?

Pretty much, yes though preparing spells at 9:00pm seems odd given that said wizard would then need to rest 8 hours prior to preparing which takes an hour, but given circumstances it may be a practical decision.

If a wizard blows through their entire spell repertoire in a single encounter, (In 30 years of playing D&D I have yet to see this in a caster of 7th level or higher) then yes he's pretty much pointless for the day unless he has magic items that can help in other encounters. At that point the wizard would need to rely on the rest of the party until he can once again prepare spells.

Wizards are hands down the most powerful class in the game after level 8. The only limiting factor they have is a finite amount of spells each day. If you allow them to prepare spells multiple times each day then the disparity between them and other classes becomes even larger.

 

[Senko]

Senko, Part 2 is your own home brew system and if it works for you then great. However; in standard 3.5 d20 where it takes an hour to prepare spells casters only get to do that once per 24 hour period. After that they can rest all they like, but they only get to prepare spells once a day. They can't cast more spells/day than their single daily allotment. If they can prepare spells each time they rest then the limiting factor of spells/day becomes meaningless. A 'day' being any contiguous 24 hour period.

Pretty much, yes though preparing spells at 9:00pm seems odd given that said wizard would then need to rest 8 hours prior to preparing which takes an hour, but given circumstances it may be a practical decision.

If a wizard blows through their entire spell repertoire in a single encounter, (In 30 years of playing D&D I have yet to see this in a caster of 7th level or higher) then yes he's pretty much pointless for the day unless he has magic items that can help in other encounters. At that point the wizard would need to rely on the rest of the party until he can once again prepare spells.

Wizards are hands down the most powerful class in the game after level 8. The only limiting factor they have is a finite amount of spells each day. If you allow them to prepare spells multiple times each day then the disparity between them and other classes becomes even larger.

Fair enough to each their own I'll stick with my homebrew thanks.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Count me in the camp that says it lets you recover your spells in 2 hours but this isn't of that much value. It lets the caster take watch most of the night but you only get the spells *PER DAY*, the ring doesn't give you any more spells. I do *NOT* permit resting mid-day. Try laying down for 8 hours of sleep in the middle of the day and see what happens--you don't sleep.

It becomes a bit more valuable if everyone has one--then you can get an extra 6 productive hours in a day if you don't have animals.