Rituals take too long and creative casting is dead

[AllisterH]

I don't really see it as a binary rules design choice. Personally I would have simply given the 'Knock-esque' spells a failure chance. In 3.x terms, perhaps the effect of a knock spell is that the wizard can make an immediate Open Locks check with a skill modifier of caster level + Int mod + wizard's ranks in Open Lock. Or something similar - that's just off the top of my head. Charm could modify Diplomacy, Spider Climb could modify Climb, etc.

Simply toning down the 'I win' factor of magic would have been a better choice than cutting utility/skill spells out of the game altogether.



If the wizard's preparing two or three Knocks, two or three Invisibilities, and a Spider Climb every morning, that's a big hit to his spell capacity unless he's extremely high level. Those are spells he won't have when it comes to combat, which means the rogue gets to do more backstabbing than he would if the wizard had loaded up on big kabooms. It can balance out.

I'm not arguing that the do-everything-brilliantly wizard wasn't a problem in 3.x - it's just that I think that toning down the reliability and effectiveness of his utility spells would be a better solution to the issue rather than eliminating them completely or reducing them to out-of-combat rituals only. Sure, let the Rogue be the king of lock-picking, but if the wizard wants to spend a spell slot on it, at least let him have a go...

1. Scrolls. By RAW, a scroll of knock costs 150 gp. By 5th level, a PC's individual character wealth is 9000GP, by 10th, it is 49,000gp. Needless to say, if the PCs actually pool their resources, having the right spell AND excess copies of it are not a problem.

As long as the wizard wasn't able to create scrolls and wands, there was enough of a break on wizard's doing everything.

2. The ritual system STILL allows for the wizard to do anything but AT A COST. Let's take for example, the "Detect Secret Doors" ritual and the PCs are being pressed/harassed by some enemies and come to a dead end.

THe ritual takes time but the result will be FAR superior to using skills.

Thus, the party actually has to sweat "Dp we forego our wizard in this encounter with our pursuers but he WILL find that secret door or do we rely on our skills and have everyone be present for the battle".

That's why I like the ritual system. It feels like magic that I've read from Conan where it is powerful but at a cost and less like the Harry Potter/3E version "you poor muggle/rogue, you're so not worthy of me"

 

[billd91]

You are running a very strange campaign if a rogue actually wants and needs to pick locks, search for traps, pick pockets and sneak around all day long.

Not if you're playing in the dungeon and the party scout is serious about his job. Not a strange campaign at all.

 

[gonesailing]

Just my quick take on creative spellcasting and 4e.
I played a little (very little) 3.5 and some AD&D a very long time ago. So I understand the "creative casting is dead" camp a little. Don't really agree...but so what.

My wife however is completely new to D&D (and roleplaying games in general) and she is trying it out using 4e. I am helping her build an Eladrin Wizard. I was helping her choose her spells and create her spellbook. Her reaction was "Wow! This is going to be the most interesting character" and was playing around with different things she could use her Cantrips for.

I think this shows that creative casting isn't completely dead (nerfed maybe). Maybe we all need to be a bit MORE creative.

 

[pemerton]

You are running a very strange campaign if a rogue actually wants and needs to pick locks, search for traps, pick pockets and sneak around all day long.

Hong, I think you're missing the essential contribution made to a co-operative game by the thief's aimless skulking while the mage loads up on new class abilities in the wizard's guildhouse:

it is a cooperative game. i am not going to steal the glory from my other players who are playing a thief for a reason-- they like thieves.

<snip>

as a magic user, when i was in a city setting i sure as hell memorized a different spell list than when i was in a dungeon. tongues, charm, suggestion, detect lie, invisibility etc all made the list. less fireballs, more utility spells. but again, i didnt steal the thief's job. he can do one thing over and over again. i am limited in my memorzation. while the thief skulked about, the magic user was in the mage guild doing magic user stuff.

 

[Doug McCrae]

It's nice of Green Lantern to pretend that Green Arrow is actually contributing something.

 

[mattdm]

The impossibility of making a decent illusionist has made 4e a no-sell for me. This isn't the only problem I have with the edition, just an example of the systematic issues I have with it. I'm glad I can read about it online before buying.

This just in:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080605a

Class Acts: Wizard
By Rodney Thompson
If you're in the market for more illusionist-style wizard powers, look no further.

 

[pemerton]

It's nice of Green Lantern to pretend that Green Arrow is actually contributing something.

!!!!

 

[Steely Dan]

"Creative casting", is that Greek for players taking advantage of vague and cryptic spell descriptions?

 

[glass]

Playing a wizard in any of the previous editions reminded me of playing Magic or, worst case scenario, Yu-Gi-Oh! Your main shtick revolves around traveling the world and collecting more spells/cards for your book/deck. And on top of that, you have hundreds of spell and 75% of them are only useful if the right conditions are met. And they only be met 2-3 times a campaign.

You build Magic decks with 75% of the cards useless most of the time? You don't win many games, do you?

Now, the (3e) sorcerer, who has a limited number of pick and has to make sure that each one really counts -there I can see the CCG analogy, but with wizards? No way!


glass.

 

[hong]

Not if you're playing in the dungeon and the party scout is serious about his job. Not a strange campaign at all.

Yes, yes. It is a very strange campaign indeed.