Rituals take too long and creative casting is dead

[Saeviomagy]

Were I playing a wizard in 4e, I doubt that much would change.

Because in 3.5, I rarely memorized most utility spells, and just left slots free, taking the 10 minutes to memorize spells.

 

[Ahglock]

I prefer to have characters have to rely on the Insight skill to discern lies. I prefer to have characters actually learning languages or to occasionally not understand the stranger except by nonverbal communication, or to have to come up with a creative way to find the time for the comprehend language ritual by using bluff or diplomacy, or retreat and then searching for the stranger to then come back to speak to the stranger. Magic should not be so overpowering that it is useless to play a noncaster character.

Yes but it should not go the other way as well where the wizard really is so ineffective out of a fight because of exorbitant costs that all the non-casters with there superior skill lists are doing everything and the wizard becomes useless too play. Without the books I can't say if this is the case or not, but if you suckify something too much its the same as saying utility spells are not in the game.

And really when you come down to it relying upon the insight skill is no different than relying upon a discern lie spell either way its just a die roll. You really don't want the magic to be the trump card for everything but the wizards don't want it to be so bad it worthless at everything. Sure the rogue wants his time to shine while conning, hiding, and breaking an entering, but the wizard should not be left to basically asking what the history of everything is because "I have nothing useful to do."

 

[hong]

Yes but it should not go the other way as well where the wizard really is so ineffective out of a fight because of exorbitant costs that all the non-casters with there superior skill lists are doing everything and the wizard becomes useless too play. Without the books I can't say if this is the case or not, but if you suckify something too much its the same as saying utility spells are not in the game.

ffs ppl. A wiz is not ineffective out of a fight. A wiz is just as effective as everyone else because of the automatic +1/2 level bonus to skills. In fact, they will be the best when it comes to Knowledge-type skills because that's their schtick. Last I heard, the complaint about the new skill system was that you couldn't deliberately suck out of combat, not that you could nerf yourself by accident.

 

[keterys]

Seriously? Anyone ever cast Make Whole in combat?

It was used to delay a boat from sinking during a combat, which allowed them to save a significant number of people and kill more enemies - I was quite surprised when it happened and it was a very good in combat use.

 

[FourthBear]

Frankly, while rituals may be less convenient, I think that arcane magic's incredibly broad definition means that Wizards will never have to worry about being useless out of combat, unless one does so with difficulty and deliberation. The scope of a Wizard's potential action is simply much higher than a Fighter or Rogue. They may just have to add some time and money resource management to some of their out-of-combat magic.

 

[Andur]

After level 9 or so for any earlier incantations of D&D you only needed a two person party, a cleric and a wizard (or sorcerer). You could handle any combat situation, any skill situation, and any magic situation with just those two characters.

This is the first post/discussion I've seen/heard that didn't think rituals were great.

 

[Ahglock]

Frankly, while rituals may be less convenient, I think that arcane magic's incredibly broad definition means that Wizards will never have to worry about being useless out of combat, unless one does so with difficulty and deliberation. The scope of a Wizard's potential action is simply much higher than a Fighter or Rogue. They may just have to add some time and money resource management to some of their out-of-combat magic.

Rituals could do everything and they still might be useless if there costs are too high. If a cost of a ritual is more than a average player would reasonably spend then its useless. Basically if the cost is so high that you basically just wont do it, then since it isn't getting done its useless.

Without seeing expected money and all the ritual costs I can't say if this is so or not.

 

[DandD]

And what is bad about it if the players don't want to cast it because of monetary concerns? That's the whole point of ressource management, isn't it? You have to consciously choose if you want to spend valuable ressources for that nifty effect.

 

[Stalker0]

It was used to delay a boat from sinking during a combat, which allowed them to save a significant number of people and kill more enemies - I was quite surprised when it happened and it was a very good in combat use.

That sounds like an exciting and wonderful way to have played that out in 3e.

In 4e you can't do that.

In 4e, you can do a skill challenge. Have your players use creative skills to save the boat during combat. The fighter uses endurance to bail out buckets of water while having to fight at the same time!! The wizard uses an int check to do the math and figure out a good way to plug the hole. The rogue uses streetwise to quickly determine find out among the crew whose the man for the job, and the paladin uses diplomacy (or intimidate) to get that person working as fast as possible.

We all have to recognize that there things in 4e you can't do compared to 3e, but we do have new tools to work with. Let's try these new tools out, and see if in the long run we like them better.



As far as one of the tools in our box, rituals, in general I like them. However, I am worried that they nerfed scrying too much. I'm all for an expensive ritual to do scrying, but it lasts 6 rounds. 6 rounds!! Considering the target can attempt to see my scrying device, I say at least half an hour if not an hour. I don't have problems with rituals being hard to do, but once I do them, they should work well.

 

[Sigdel]

Playing a wizard in any of the previous editions reminded me of playing Magic or, worst case scenario, Yu-Gi-Oh! Your main shtick revolves around traveling the world and collecting more spells/cards for your book/deck. And on top of that, you have hundreds of spell and 75% of them are only useful if the right conditions are met. And they only be met 2-3 times a campaign.

I find it funny that the wizard was CCG before anyone ever thought of such a thing. It puts a funny twist on the "OMG! They is turning DnD in to M:tG!!1!" lament.