Rituals take too long and creative casting is dead

[Khaim]

Yes but it should not go the other way as well where the wizard really is so ineffective out of a fight because of exorbitant costs that all the non-casters with there superior skill lists are doing everything and the wizard becomes useless too play. Without the books I can't say if this is the case or not, but if you suckify something too much its the same as saying utility spells are not in the game.

And really when you come down to it relying upon the insight skill is no different than relying upon a discern lie spell either way its just a die roll. You really don't want the magic to be the trump card for everything but the wizards don't want it to be so bad it worthless at everything. Sure the rogue wants his time to shine while conning, hiding, and breaking an entering, but the wizard should not be left to basically asking what the history of everything is because "I have nothing useful to do."

First of all, people will respond more positively to your words if they can easily understand them. Spelling and grammar exist for a reason.

Second, the wizard is far from useless out of combat. In fact, he's still one of the more useful characters. The difference is, he is no longer the only useful character.

Things wrong in your post:

• Non-casters don't have "superior skill lists". Sure, rogues and rangers have more skills, but that's not new. Fighters get less (I guess they're still stupid). Everyone else has exactly the same number of skills.
• Exorbitant costs don't come out of the wizard's cut, they come out of the group's cut. If you play it otherwise, that's a problem with your lame group, not the game. Does the cleric have to pay 5000gp every time he uses Raise Dead on the fighter?
• Even if "suckify" was a word, it doesn't apply to rituals. True, a good number of them are just 3e spells with 10 min casting time and material components. But have you looked at the "utility" spells from 3e? They do things like obsolete an entire skill, turn a stealth mission into a walk in the park, bore holes through a castle's 20 foot thick wall...
• True, a Discern Lies spell (3e) requires a failed save, but it also tells you whether or not you can trust the results. Which is the point.
• If a rogue in 3e ever got to shine while doing thief-related things, the wizard must be unconscious. Between Invisibility, Silence, Knock, and any number of illusion spells (some of them cantrips), a brain-dead wizard can out-thief a rogue any day. And let's not forget Charm Person.

Honestly, you remind me of a WoW player after patch day. Game balance doesn't factor into anything; all that matters is that <insert class> is slightly less powerful than before.

 

[EroGaki]

Actually, I usually have utility spells like comprehend languages on scrolls. You know, since any intelligent wizard worth his salt would use the Scribe Scroll feat that he automatically gets at 1st level.

 

[FourthBear]

Rituals could do everything and they still might be useless if there costs are too high. If a cost of a ritual is more than a average player would reasonably spend then its useless. Basically if the cost is so high that you basically just wont do it, then since it isn't getting done its useless.

Without seeing expected money and all the ritual costs I can't say if this is so or not.

Several rituals are listed in the official excerpt on Rituals:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080528a

The most relevant to this discussion is likely the third level ritual, Detect Secret Doors. This costs 125 gp to learn, 25 gp and 10 minutes to cast.

From the Rewards except, a 5th level party can expect about 2000 gp worth of monetary rewards on its way to 6th level. So 25 gp is a bit more than 1/100th of the total treasure from one level to another in the middle of the Heroic Tier. So if you used it 125 times during your time (during the which time you are presumed to have overcome about 10 level-appropriate challenges), you would have spent everything you're expected to have earned.

It sounds like constant use of this rituals won't be common, but when needed it won't be prohibitively expensive. I expect the time will be more a consideration, as well as the fact that using it doesn't guarantee success. With a good Arcana bonus, it's almost assured success for any level-appropriately hidden secret door, however.

 

[Henry]

Ladies and Gents, I know it's in vogue now to be hostile, but can we be a little kinder in how we put things to one another? It's a minor request (as opposed to a move or standard), so I'm not asking too much.

I agree with EroGaki - utility spells were so ubiquitous in 3e that I always used to make sure that at the very least the rogue in the party with a use magic device skill tricked out would carry a few of the most important ones on scroll - heck, I and others in the group would even help pay for them for him to carry them! That way, we weren't held up by lack of a knock, or fly, or rope trick, or creation, etc.

But what it does is make plain rogues almost entirely focus on hide, tumble, and move silently, solely to aid their own sneak attack shots, and use nothing else. Pick a lock? Why, when the wizard has a few knocks on scroll, and the Warblade can crush any other door to flinders? Pick Pocket? Why, when the Psion can dominate and modify memory? Jump? Climb? There are rings and spells for those. I can understand the reason why so many utilities were rejiggered as rituals or eliminated entirely.

 

[Zsig]

My only problem with Rituals, more specifically Scrolls is that they promote metagame thinking.

I know understand why people keeps complaining about how Wizards are not the same anymore. All classes have changed, and if you put up one against the other the wizard is still the most versatile class in the book.

Think about it.

90% (or more) of the powers that comes from all classes are attack powers and/or works after you hit with an attack.

The difference lies on the Utility Powers (which you'll be lucky if you find a "utility" for most of them outside the combat). And that's where the Wizard kicks in, they have the most useful Utility Powers through all classes. Not to mention you have double as many daily and utility powers (or 3 times with that paragon feat) as any other class.

So, really, you're still a God amongst mere mortals.

 

[AllisterH]

I kind of like the rituals mainly because it causes a lot more thinking on the parts of players.

Scenario: Party is on the run from the monsters and discovers a room with apparently no exit.

Option 1: Use the skills but have a lesser chance of success BUT everyone is present for the combat coming.

Option 2: Use the Ritual and pretty much be assured of finding the secret door but said ritual caster will need to be protected and won't be available for combat.

What's not to like?

 

[MrGrenadine]

I agree--no wizard I've played as or with has ever loaded up on (memorized) Comp Lang, Invisibility, Discern Lies and other non-combat spells, because spell slots are extremely limited in 3.5, and most times, in most campaigns (IMO), a wizard is going to want a good crowd control, debuff, or damage spell at his or her fingertips in case things get violent. Also, why take up a slot for a spell if someone else in the party can do that same thing? Slots are too valuable for loading up with anything but your most powerful, most effective spells for the situation, (and if the situation is unknown, then your most powerful, effective and adaptable spells).

However, I have to say--What's wrong with options? I'm looking forward to playing 4e, but this is my biggest complaint with the design--excluding options just because someone decided they weren't useful *enough*, or *could* be exploited. Thats for the DM to adjudicate, IMO. If you're playing a more RP-centric game of political intrigue, or a murder mystery scenario, or one of a million other stories that are less dependent on violent encounters breaking out every half-a-session, then a wizard should have the option to have Discern Lies, Comp Language, or similar spells at the ready, without having to pause for 10 minutes. Also, what if the character that would usually fill a particular role is incapacitated? The rogue is unconscious, and someone appears and offers you help? Perfect time to use that Discern Lies spell, (if you happen to have memorized it).

Bottom line: If 3.5 casters were too powerful, then limit their slots, or decrease spell durations--but why take options off the table just because some people don't see a need for them?

MrG

p.s. Silence as a ritual confuses me. There must be a Silence power as well, or some things--trying to sneak a group of armored warriors past a guard post, or fighting any kind of spell caster--is going to get a lot (and needlessly) tougher.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

p.s. Silence as a ritual confuses me. There must be a Silence power as well, or some things--trying to sneak a group of armored warriors past a guard post, or fighting any kind of spell caster--is going to get a lot (and needlessly) tougher.

silence was the single most broken spell in 3.x

no resistance, no saving throw:
cast it on your level 3 barbarian and let him hunt that silly level 10 mage...

 

[Lurks-no-More]

p.s. Silence as a ritual confuses me. There must be a Silence power as well, or some things--trying to sneak a group of armored warriors past a guard post, or fighting any kind of spell caster--is going to get a lot (and needlessly) tougher.

If there ever was a spell in need of nerfing, it was Silence. This second-level spell not only rendered Move Silently obsolete, and made beating security (ie. guards and alarms) much too easy, it was the generic spellcaster-busting effect. (Sure, Still Spell countered it... but unless your opponent had a Stilled Dispel Magic at hand, they were screwed.)

Not to mention that since you could cast it on an object instead of a creature, it didn't really give either save nor spell resistance. At one point, we would cast Silence on a rock tied to a rope twenty-one feet in length, then have the party's pixie turn invisible, fly over the enemy spellcaster and lower the now-invisible, silence-radiating rock close to them!

 

[Riley]

we would cast Silence on a rock tied to a rope twenty-one feet in length, then have the party's pixie turn invisible, fly over the enemy spellcaster and lower the now-invisible, silence-radiating rock close to them!

Now I remember what I disliked about 3e: every party needed to have a pixie.

p.s. Why twenty-one feet?