Rituals take too long and creative casting is dead

[FourthBear]

But who plays DnD with a guy who trys to move in on my character's schtick? I don't know about you but I play with my friends.

Of course, it's a mark of a well functioning party that the various members aren't competing against each other. However, you can see how this doesn't exactly defend the position that the mage's powers did not cheapen the rogue's abilities. The wizard's spells are overall quicker, more reliable and less restricted than the rogue's skill use in the majority of cases. When things were critical and down to the wire, a sensible party *would* have the mage use stealth spells, rather than depend on the rogue's skill rolls.

It's nice that you never tried to overshadow the rogue in your parties, but you could have easily. And the rogue class simply did not have the ability to intrude on most the wizard classes' many, nearly all encompassing niches. A DM can mollify some of these issues by making frequent use of antimagic and spell nullifying situations. But that seems to be an inelegant way of managing things, IMO. Much better to prevent problems through solid design right out of the gate.

 

[broghammerj]

It's nice that you never tried to overshadow the rogue in your parties, but you could have easily. And the rogue class simply did not have the ability to intrude on most the wizard classes' many, nearly all encompassing niches. A DM can mollify some of these issues by making frequent use of antimagic and spell nullifying situations. But that seems to be an inelegant way of managing things, IMO. Much better to prevent problems through solid design right out of the gate.

In fact I usually was the rogue so I don't see things the way many of you have had things play out.

Every game has its exploits.

 

[Yaezakura]

Every game has its exploits.

And when those exploits are found, they are eliminated for the sake of an overall better play experience.

 

[ptolemy18]

After level 9 or so for any earlier incantations of D&D you only needed a two person party, a cleric and a wizard (or sorcerer). You could handle any combat situation, any skill situation, and any magic situation with just those two characters.

This is the first post/discussion I've seen/heard that didn't think rituals were great.

I always *did* want to run, or be in, a 3.x campaign where everyone had to play spellcasters... ~_~ Nothing but weird creative problem-solving... and the 3e Wizard and Sorcerer are so frickin' versatile that you could easily create a party full of non-redundant characters who are all arcane spellcasters.

I am solidly pro-3e-wizard.... but on the other hand, I actually think the 4e rituals system is pretty cool.

 

[AllisterH]

Of course, it's a mark of a well functioning party that the various members aren't competing against each other. However, you can see how this doesn't exactly defend the position that the mage's powers did not cheapen the rogue's abilities. The wizard's spells are overall quicker, more reliable and less restricted than the rogue's skill use in the majority of cases. When things were critical and down to the wire, a sensible party *would* have the mage use stealth spells, rather than depend on the rogue's skill rolls.

.

This is why I like the ritual system. The rituals themselves ARE better than maxxed out skills of that tier and even above. Yet there's a significant opportunity cost in using them, namely time and money.

A ritual scroll usually takes 5 minutes so now a party has to decide.

"Do we use the sureshot method of the wizard but have him out of this encounter or do we depend on our skills which will only leave us a body down in this encounter for a round or two but it isn't a sure thing"?

 

[The Little Raven]

This is a perfect example of creative casting at its finest.

I fail to see how using a "fix something" spell to fix something is creative. That's about as creative as using "cure disease" to cure a disease.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

And when those exploits are found, they are eliminated for the sake of an overall better play experience.

Or ignored by players and dm's with some common sense. Those that realize D&D is a cooperative game, not a competitive game.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Or ignored by players and dm's with some common sense. Those that realize D&D is a cooperative game, not a competitive game.

Your DM ignored simple spells like Silence?

 

[IceFractal]

I fail to see how using a "fix something" spell to fix something is creative. That's about as creative as using "cure disease" to cure a disease.

It's as "creative" as using Move Silently to sneak past people.

Face it - declaring you cast a spell is not creative. Rolling a skill check is not creative. Even a skill challenge is only creative to the extent you try to justify skills which are an odd match to the task. Being able to read your character sheet and roll dice wins you no awards.


The creative part of fixing that boat was when the player decided to prepare Make Whole in the first place, rather than a more universally applicable combat spell. That's usually where creativity lies - choosing abilties. Creativity can also be found in unusual uses of existing tools - using Silence to be stealthy isn't creative, but using it to detect the boundary of a anti-magic field could be.

Thus, the way in which that 4E hinders creative spell use isn't the fact that Knock is no longer much good for opening doors, but the fact that it can no longer do something like open a trapdoor underneath a foe.

Now the fact that Knock is probably worse than taking 20, and almost certainly worse than bashing the door down, is an issue too - but it's more an aspiration issue than a creativity one.

 

[The Little Raven]

It's as "creative" as using Move Silently to sneak past people.

Which isn't creative at all. It's standard.

The creative part of fixing that boat was when the player decided to prepare Make Whole in the first place, rather than a more universally applicable combat spell.

That's not creative. That's lucky. If there hadn't been a boat with a hole in it, then this spell would not have been useful. There was no clever thinking on the part of the player.