Rob Kuntz hates Wizards (spoiler)

[KarinsDad]

So how are you not hung up on mechanics? Everything you listed is the result of a game mechanic.

Everything I listed was the result of the differences between Wizards and Sorcerers. You call that mechanics. I call it a case of Wizards having more of a 1E feeling than Sorcerers.

How can something that totally did not exist in the original have more of an original feel than something that did?

The way you played 1e or 2e was not the only way it was played, apparently, based on the fact that Necromancer, according to your post, uses a lot of sorcerers in lieu of wizards. They seem to think 1e feel is evoked with sorcerers. Even Rob Kuntz is using sorcerers rather than wizards, as you mentioned, and if he isn't a fan of 1e feel and mechanics, I don't know who is. Apparently the feel of the sorecer is more 1e to them. As I said, it's about an often indefinable feel of 1e, not the mechanics. That's why 1e feel canb be evoked using a totally new 3e mechanic, which a character class like the sorcerer definitely is.

What a load of junk.

Next, you'll be telling us that Space Rangers have more of a 1E feel because they were not in 1E either.

 

[Piratecat]

Everyone's going to stay polite, right? Right!

- PC

 

[KarinsDad]

Everyone's going to stay polite, right? Right!

- PC

Does this mean that you are going to take the rolleyes symbol away?

 

[adndgamer]

Gods! It's turning into a 1e vs 3e thread again! *runs away in terror*

 

[PatrickLawinger]

The way you played 1e or 2e was not the only way it was played, apparently, based on the fact that Necromancer, according to your post, uses a lot of sorcerers in lieu of wizards. They seem to think 1e feel is evoked with sorcerers. Even Rob Kuntz is using sorcerers rather than wizards, as you mentioned, and if he isn't a fan of 1e feel and mechanics, I don't know who is. Apparently the feel of the sorecer is more 1e to them. As I said, it's about an often indefinable feel of 1e, not the mechanics. That's why 1e feel canb be evoked using a totally new 3e mechanic, which a character class like the sorcerer definitely is.

Okay, I don't know where this whole thing is going. Rob Kuntz is just one writer with one set of adventures coming from Necromancer Games. There are a number of other writers, including myself, that use wizards, complete with spellbooks, quite often in their adventures.

Wizards vs Sorcerers as bad guys in written adventures. One note, sometimes a sorc is easier to write up in terms of spells and tactics. High level wizards should have correspondingly long lists of "known" spells in their spellbooks. This means the writer or the DM (we sorta prefer the DM making the choice) needs to select which spells to use and which tactics. I generally list a wizard's spellbooks, and then list which spells *I* suggest with combat tactics I suggest. I always presume the DM changes whatever they want.

Personally, I like wizards for evil-nasty-bads. Evil cleric/wizard combos can be even more fun. That is just me.

Mechanics: Everyone has a different view on game mechanics in 1e vs 3e. Personally, I think 3e is better balanced. I have nothing against the multi-classing system, or the classes provided.

"First Edition Feel" -This has been hashed and rehashed. Basically, what Necro means is that we try to provide "environments" (dungeons, wilderness, towns, whatever) where the PCs make decisions. We try to avoid forced story lines and/or significant "role-play" elements that could conflict with a DM's personal game world.

Products from major 1e authors like Rob Kuntz might vary a bit from some of the ideals. I thought the premise of the prisoner series was slightly forced, but this is a way Rob used in the written format to get characters into the Maze. I would use a completely different method, but anything I would have used would probably have taken a hell of a lot more time and space to write-up and would have been specific to my world, ie, not a good idea.

Okay, lets see what sort of flames this garners...

Patrick

 

[Aaron L]

I like the Necromancer Games slogan, and I like the feeling behind it.

 

[Pielorinho]

I personally like wizards more than sorcerers. KD, I don't agree with your original suspicion -- that designers use sorcerers rather than wizards as bad guy sin order to avoid PCs gaining the spellbooks of their enemies.

I do think it has much more to do with sorcerers being easier to run for DMs. Especially when the DM didn't create the scenario. It's easier to remember a sorcerer's minor list of spells than it is to remember the larger list that a wizard will have.

Generally, though, I rewrite spell lists for any NPCs in a published adventure anyway, so it doesn't matter much for me. I do wish more published adventures used wizards; they're lots of fun.
Daniel

 

[Melan]

One more thing: sorcerers are new to D&D (or at least official D&D), and designers like to play with brand new toys. If I recall correctly, one of the WotC people even said that their modules will try to showcase the new features of 3e - sorcerers, half dragons (twink alert! twink alert!), halfling paladins (someone saaaave meee...) and such. This has gone overboard in a few cases.

 

[Orcus]

Hi everyone!

I prefer wizards too.

As for Rob Kuntz' modules, I am certainly not going to tell him what to write. If he wants sorcerers, then thats what it is going to be.

I think the fact that the adventure is by Rob Kuntz establishes the 'first edition feel' enough for me. I certainly dont think our slogan is moronic. I take it very seriously.

But hey, thats the joy of d20. There is something out there for everyone.

Clark

 

[KarinsDad]

Products from major 1e authors like Rob Kuntz might vary a bit from some of the ideals. I thought the premise of the prisoner series was slightly forced, but this is a way Rob used in the written format to get characters into the Maze. I would use a completely different method, but anything I would have used would probably have taken a hell of a lot more time and space to write-up and would have been specific to my world, ie, not a good idea.

Okay, lets see what sort of flames this garners...

Patrick

Well, I hope it does not generate flames. From the NG side of the house, I would think you guys would take comments like this seriously.

As for these adventures, they shouted 1E to me with the exception of the abundance of Sorcerers.

In fact, these adventures looked exactly like old ones that Rob pulled out of the closet, dusted off, and revamped for 3E.

For example, the main bad guy in the second module has a Staff of Withering. Definitely a 1E item that was not in core 3E (maybe it is in one of the sourcebooks, but I do not recall seeing it, nor should a module be dependent on a sourcebook). If you do not have the 1E or 2E DMG, you basically have to ask on the internet, or you have to make it up on your own.

So, these modules definitely have that feel with this one glaring exception. Even the generated PC arcane spell caster is a Sorcerer. Sigh.

One other thing that bugged me is that the picture of the harem does not correspond to the description of the female Fighter there. So, I showed the picture and had to explain that no, the one on the end is in a long silk bulky robe, not in lingerie. It’s kind of bothersome when the pictures do not correspond to the module.


Btw, I totally blew off Rob’s premise, had an evil group kidnapped the NPC druid in the group, took the two menhirs from Heart of Nightfang Spire and had two teleportation platforms, one at each menhir (at one menhir, magic from evil casters does not work, at the other, magic from good casters does not work), and had the evil group blackmail the party into teleporting into the maze. However, the maze was actually over 500 years in the past, so this explained why there were actually people in it. Plus, when they teleported in, the only equipment the party had with them is magical items and anything touching their skin, so they lost a lot of mundane equipment (this was to partially coincide with Rob’s lack of equipment premise). It was kind of funny to have them find themselves lying in a corridor with a bunch of potions, scrolls, and arrows without any pouches or quivers to carry them in. They were scrambling for solutions for quite some time.

So, basically, in modules like these, you have to improvise. I almost never use the suggested plotline, just most of the material.

But, I find it mildly annoying that I have to go change one of the Sorcerers to a Wizard (probably the tough one in the second module) in order to have a Wizard encounter (which to me is one of the heart and souls of 1E). If my PCs are going to gain a few levels in here (btw, we have 4 8th levels and 1 7th level and they were doing real good for being below the recommended levels until they accidentally got split up via the teleport corridors), there had better be something significant there for each character to acquire, including the party Wizard.