Robert J. Schwalb Blog Discussion; Feats: Do We need them?

[I'm A Banana]

I've decided that I know what feats should do for me.

They should add breadth, not depth.

That is, they shouldn't give you any MORE power than you have now.

They should just give you different ways to use that power.

"Power" feats are in. They need to be balanced by level like other powers, but they're in.

"Multiclass" feats are in. They clearly need to be better than 4e's current version, but they're in.

"Racial" feats are in. They need to give you an actual ability you didn't have before, but they're in.

"Math" feats are out. +1's are for levels.

"Niche" or "Skill" feats are out. They're not going to be as good as the other choices.

Feats increase the amount of things you can do, but they don't let you do BETTER things than you can currently do.

 

[TwoSix]

I've decided that I know what feats should do for me.

They should add breadth, not depth.

That is, they shouldn't give you any MORE power than you have now.

They should just give you different ways to use that power.

How does one use a power differently, if it isn't either an upgrade to that power, or simply a new power?

 

[I'm A Banana]

How does one use a power differently, if it isn't either an upgrade to that power, or simply a new power?

Just a few examples:

• Use a power with a different Ability Score.
• Have a power target a different NAD.
• Give a power a different keyword or damage type.
• Replace the Effect of a power with a different one.
• Use a different weapon or implement with the power.

New powers (of equal or lesser power than the one you have) are also kosher; they add breadth, not depth.

Consider something like the Channel Divinity feats, where you gain extra encounter powers, but you still can't use any more per encounter than you could before. Just new ways to use your existing options.

 

[Klaus]

I've decided that I know what feats should do for me.

They should add breadth, not depth.

That is, they shouldn't give you any MORE power than you have now.

They should just give you different ways to use that power.

"Power" feats are in. They need to be balanced by level like other powers, but they're in.

"Multiclass" feats are in. They clearly need to be better than 4e's current version, but they're in.

"Racial" feats are in. They need to give you an actual ability you didn't have before, but they're in.

"Math" feats are out. +1's are for levels.

"Niche" or "Skill" feats are out. They're not going to be as good as the other choices.

Feats increase the amount of things you can do, but they don't let you do BETTER things than you can currently do.

I'll add another thing:

- Specialization feats: like the ones we already have for the whip and the spiked chain, for instance. These take the place of Superior Implement Proficiency by letting you not only gain proficiency in a superior weapon, but also unlocks new powers for that weapon.

I'd also like to see feats tackle something like a beast companion, giving you access to a beast and unlocking beast powers.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

Problem is that you pretty much have to keep plenty of scope for players to customise their characters, or the hard-core will lose interest and go elsewhere.

I was only talking in context of Essentials, viewing it as a "beginner/casual" 4E as opposed to core 4E's full richness. My argument is that if a goal of Essentials was to simplify the game, they didn't go far enough and should have done something with feats too.

 

[TwoSix]

Just a few examples:

• Use a power with a different Ability Score.
• Have a power target a different NAD.
• Give a power a different keyword or damage type.
• Replace the Effect of a power with a different one.
• Use a different weapon or implement with the power.

New powers (of equal or lesser power than the one you have) are also kosher; they add breadth, not depth.

Consider something like the Channel Divinity feats, where you gain extra encounter powers, but you still can't use any more per encounter than you could before. Just new ways to use your existing options.

So do you think these feats should provide replacements (target Reflex instead of Fort) or options (target Ref or Fort)?

 

[DEFCON 1]

My preference would be to go the route of d20 Modern and split things up into "Feats" and "Talents". Feats would remain the combat-centric bonuses you could get, while Talents would become the non-combat bonuses that people tend to skip because they aren't as useful. So all the current skill related feats like Skill Focus or Long Jumper etc. as well as things like Linguist, Ritual Caster, Alchemist and the like, would all be Talents instead. This way there is a clear demarcation between the two types, and players would get the chance to select these more "roleplaying" styled abilities every couple of levels without feeling like they're gypping their character.

This would also cut down on the number of combat-related, fiddly-bit Feats that a player would have, solving that problem as well.

 

[MrMyth]

Feats - or Talents, Qualities - any set of options that let players distinguish their characters and capabilities are, I think, an important part of a game.

The problem I have with 4E feats is that there are two real directions they go in:

1) Generalized feats that are numerically potent, and;

2) Specialized or conditional feats designed to support specific builds.

The second category is, I think, the proper place for feats - but really can't compete with the numerically better first category. And when they are able to do so, that causes its own level of imbalance.

Basically, I want to see feats that help build a unique concept. I don't want feats that support that concept being, "Just Do More Damage" or "Just Be Super Tough."

And I want feats to support concepts, not define them. I want feats that provide options that are distinct and interesting without being character-defining. They shouldn't be the be-all and end-all of what a character can do - just enhance existing capabilities, or expand a character's options.

Now, finding that balance is an undeniably tricky thing. But that would be the ideal I would love to see.

 

[darkwing]

I think feats are fun (excluding the ones needed to "fix the math").

Feats like Polearm Momentum change the game in interesting ways.

My barbarian likes the "situational bonus" of Powerful Charge.

Basically I like feats that let you do new things or help optimize a particular combat style.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I want to silo feats into three sets

Feats- this is where combat feats like toughness, durable, weap prof, weap focus, weap exp ( just +1no scale), and multi class ( only 1 needed power swap built in)

Talents- takes the non combs like linguistics skill train skill focus rit cast pong jump... Then add in some utilite powers to round it out... Most at will utilities and some skill based ones

Focuses- these will be class and race feats like back staber and eladrin soldier... Showing class or race features you focus on.


Give talents every 3 levels, feats every 2 and focuses every 5.you can trade 1 feat or talent for the other once you can trade a focus for either of the others but can NOT trade anything for a focus...


Then I would also make sure every class got 1 feature that effects skill challenges and so do paragon paths...