Rodney Thompson on Multiclassing

[LostInTheMists]

The first thing to remember is that multiclassing doesn't exist in 4e.

Rather than just be a sword-wielding wizard, though, I decided to take the plunge: I multiclassed into fighter.

The emphasis above is mine - is multiclassing in, or do you think he's just referring to a selection of feats and abilities to mimic multiclassing?

 

[KidSnide]

I decided to take the plunge: I multiclassed into fighter.

Is multiclassing in, or do you think he's just referring to a selection of feats and abilities to mimic multiclassing?

Based on one of the Mearls comments in a podcast, my understanding is that multi-classing exists in two different ways in 4E: (1) You can take powers from other classes and (2) Proper "multi-classing" in which you gain some of the class abilities of the new class.

I note that #2 is important because, if you want the feel of a fighter, you need some of the "sticky" abilities that, from the DDXP character sheets, appear to be class abilities - not powers. However, unlike 3E, multi-classing does not appear to give you all the stuff that you get by just starting at level 1 in a class. Mike specifically noted that this was very constraining in 3E because you couldn't give a class all of its characteristic abilities at level 1 because that was too vulnerable to splashing.

This strongly suggests that there is some mechanism for slowing gaining class abilities over time. If all classes gain improved class abilities over time (like the Rogue's improving sneak attack), then they may also include a multiclass table which grants those abilities over time to a character that "multi-classes" into that class.

For example, maybe multi-classing into cleric lets you do one Healing Word per encounter. (Note that the power is labeled "Cleric Feature" suggesting that it is a class ability, not just a selected power.) Whereas, a full cleric starts with two Healing Words per encounter in which both the bonus hp that is added to the surge increases and the number of Words per encounter increase over time. Similarly, a fighter-rogue would have sticky (defender) class abilities from the fighter and sneak attack (striker) class abilities from the rogue. Maybe the multi-classed fighter has the ability to mark, but doesn't start with the extra-sticky abilities? Maybe the multi-classed rogue has only a 1d6 sneak attack and doesn't have some of the rogue training and other class abilities?

The idea that you give up some of your native class abilities to gain new class abilities is what makes this seem like a "plunge". It's quite different from forgo-ing the next warlord power to gain a wizard power. That's just an extra ranged attack, you're not compromising on your leader-ness.

But, of course, this is mostly speculation...

 

[SteveC]

The emphasis above is mine - is multiclassing in, or do you think he's just referring to a selection of feats and abilities to mimic multiclassing?

I think it's a combination, where you take a level of fighter, and what it gives you is one of the selection of the fighter's core abilities.

The need for true multiclassing comes from the fact that earlier editions had different progressions for saves, BAB and special class abilities. At this point, the only thing that's different is the class abilities, so the mechanics for multiclassing can change and still accomplish the same thing.

--Steve

 

[Incenjucar]

I'm hoping that Gauntlets are in there somewhere as Martial weapons.

Not quite a Monk, but you could have a veritable mini-Thanos breaking faces and exploding things with his mini-finity gauntlet.

 

[Voss]

So, OK. TerraDave also linked his blog here, http://www.gleemax.com/Comms/Pages/Communities/BlogPost.aspx?blogpostid=52008&pagemode=2&blogid=2100
about the economy of actions.

This is really important, since its one of the main reasons the 3e fighter was so lackluster when compared to the full casters. They could get extra actions, minions, companions, haste, time stop, etc, and melee types largely couldn't. Not to mention quicken spell

But it worries me that this doesn't get mentioned until after the books go to print.and he doesn't seem to have any real solutions for it. So what does it mean for 4e? Is the menagerie and various spells still going to dominate because those characters have a big pile of stuff to go through? Or are they going to be the gimpy packmules that he is talking about at the end because you somehow have to share actions with your minions?

 

[Aegir]

the economy of actions.

So what does it mean for 4e?

Right now, I don't think it means anything.

They've already stated that wizards don't have familiars (but they are working on them), there are no druids (yet), and I'm willing to bet there are no summoning spells yet, so the only real question is rangers and their animal companion (which I imagine won't be in, at least not in core).

What it does mean, is that they're aware of the issue, and also aware that simply making companions/cohorts/henchmen so weak they're hardly worth having is not a good fix either. I do think its a step in the right direction to make a PC and his lackies all work off the same pool of actions; its not a perfect solution, but its better then how it works in 3E. It would make a wizard and his shield guardian (or meatshield henchmen) alot more functional (move actions can move the meatshield into defensive positions, while the wizard casts).

 

[Vempyre]

The emphasis above is mine - is multiclassing in, or do you think he's just referring to a selection of feats and abilities to mimic multiclassing?

The latter


edit : could be wrong, but the very little info we have all points to that. That's why I think there no multiclassing (as in you don't take a lvl of another class ever), but there is "something else" that "mimics" it.
Exemple : Absolutly no developper post mentions taking a lvl of another class when talking about the multi-classing. Instead they all mention dabbling into another class' powers.

edit 2 : I think the paragon paths' rules is another indication of how "multiclassing" (for lack of a better word) has evolved. And I see "multiclassing" as working the same way paragon paths do. You choose powers from another class instead of one of your regular powers when levelling up. Be it via feats or "something else". I think feats make more sense.

 

[Vempyre]

Found one more example of the new "multiclassing" that tends to solidify my thoughts on how it works :

http://jediwiker.livejournal.com/41107.html

At least two characters had an at-will power that was obviously worse than another one of their at-will powers. You'd look at your character sheet and say, "why would I ever X when I can Y, because Y is simply better?" Keri's is the best example, she has two at-will attacks that deal damage, but one deals more damage than the other at the same attack value.

Kerri was playing the warlock, right? IIRC, she has eldritch blast which is the big damage-dealer, but she also has eyebite which does less damage, it's true, but also makes you invisible to the target for a round. That's pretty good, as it's a great way for the less-than-hearty warlock to avoid taking damage from a bad guy. Likewise, her ray of frost was a wizard multiclass power, and it also has a slowing effect on it. The damage may be different, but a difference in damage usually comes with other effects.

So the playtest Warlock everybody has seen is multiclassed and that'S why he had ray of frost. And the way it works is that he has a Wizard's encounter power that replaced one of his usual warlock encounter powers choices. Just like the paragon paths will work.

I have no idea if getting that required to take a feat though. Because the playtest warlock has the same number of feat (1) that the other characters and it has nothing to do with Wizards. SO how do somebody dabbles into another class? You just "make the decision to do so without any prerequisites or feats or such?"

 

[Shroomy]

So the playtest Warlock everybody has seen is multiclassed and that'S why he had ray of frost. And the way it works is that he has a Wizard's encounter power that replaced one of his usual warlock encounter powers choices. Just like the paragon paths will work.

I have no idea if getting that required to take a feat though. Because the playtest warlock has the same number of feat (1) that the other characters and it has nothing to do with Wizards. SO how do somebody dabbles into another class? You just "make the decision to do so without any prerequisites or feats or such?"

I thought the warlock's ray of frost ability was tied to a half-elf racial ability, not a multi-classing feat. Was this confirmed/not confirmed?

 

[Fobok]

I thought the warlock's ray of frost ability was tied to a half-elf racial ability, not a multi-classing feat. Was this confirmed/not confirmed?

I don't know about confirmed, but on my downloaded sheet it's showing as Wizard Attack 1, not Half-elf Racial Power.