Rogue/Barbarian sneak attack while raging?

[Caliban]

From the SRD:

Sneak Attack: Any time the rogue's target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks the target, the rogue's attack deals extra damage. The extra damage is +1d6 at 1st level and an additional 1d6 every two levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can only count as sneak attacks if the target is within 30 feet. The rogue can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, the rogue can make a sneak attack that deals subdual damage instead of normal damage. The rogue cannot use a weapon that deals normal damage to deal subdual damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

A rogue can only sneak attack a living creature with a discernible anatomy. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach a vital spot. The rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

I'm not seeing where any special concentration or patience is required to make a sneak attack.

It takes no more time to make a sneak attack than a normal attack (because you can sneak attack on an AoO and you can sneak attack with every single attack you have), so you don't need to be patient to line up the shot.

It seems to be that the sneak attack described in the PHB is more of a reflexive strike at a vital area when you see an opening than a carefully planned attack.

*shrug* I can find no support in the rules for denying the sneak attack ability to a raging barbarian.

If you don't want to allow it, it would be a house rule on your part.

 

[Valicor]

That was my point. He's not thinking about it. He's just trained himself to always strike at the weak spots. It's a reflex. Every attack he does is charged with Sneak Attack potential, this is evidenced by the fact that the determining factor on wether an attack is SA or not is the way the defending person is fighting. You don't declare that your character is trying to SA, he's always trying to do so because it's just the way he fights. Your attacks just don't get to do SA damage if the defender is able to fully focus his defenses on you.

That's gotta be one of the best ways I could possibly think of to explain the siuation.

 

[WizarDru]

Besides back stab is not a feat or a typical skill.

Back Stab? What's this backstab you refer to?


(points jonethenrev towards one of those 'preconceived notions you prescribe to those who disagree with your conceived notions') Just in case you thought it was a product of my imagination.

 

[WizarDru]

It seems to be that the sneak attack described in the PHB is more of a reflexive strike at a vital area when you see an opening than a carefully planned attack.

*shrug* I can find no support in the rules for denying the sneak attack ability to a raging barbarian.

If you don't want to allow it, it would be a house rule on your part.

Exactly the way I see it. This is no different to me than a monk having trained herself to strike with her fists through rigorous practice. The barbarian/rogue has trained his combat instincts to strike at the weaker spots.

He has not, IMHO, becoming an unthinking killing machine, just a very focused one. I would think he'd be unreasonable, but he wouldn't forget his combat abilities merely because he was so intent on killing someone. If he became so poorly focused, then I would expect his WILL save to go down, not up, as he'd be more vulnerable to being fooled. However, it goes up because he's more determined and single-minded. The example of using a bow showcases this.

Choosing such a house rule is a personal choice, but creates something of a slippery slope concerning what the barbarian can and cannot do, and how to handle the permutations of each situation. If you don't mind doing that, have fun.

 

[Xarlen]

I still want to know why a Barb can shoot a bow accurately, while in rage.

If he's not focused, and is just wanting to Smash things to smitherenes, a blood thirsty unthinking Clobbering Machine, then how can he take the time to aim a bow properly?

He'd have to have the patience and concentration to line the shot up, and *aim* properly (anyone who's done archery knows you don't just grab an arrow, point in the general direction and let fly).

Now, since rogues can make sneak attacks with shortbows, they fire the same way that an archer fires, just takes advantage better of the lower guard. So... Where's the diff?

 

[Corwin the Confused]

I guess when all is said and done Crothian was right:

The problem with this is it is the grey area. When anything that involves grey comes around people seem to be of two thoughts "Proove me it can happen" or "Proove me it cannot happen".

And perhaps it is my nature to be in the "Proove It To Me That It Can Happen CAMP"

Why does an attack that requires concentration have to take additional time? IMVHO, I do not think that it does need to take extra time, just concentration.

I do like the point made by the "Proove It To Me That It Cannot Happen CAMP". A raging Barb doesn't lose attack bonus for ranged attack.

So I am less convinced that I am interpreting the rules as they were intended.

But in my little world where I am all powerful I will limit the poor, raging and sneak attacking Rogue/Barbarians in my world to choosing one or the other.

I remain,

Corwin the Confused

P.S. Corwin, I am sorry if I have in any way disparaged your name. I am sure that you are no where near as confused as I.

 

[Corwin the Confused]

P.S.S. I do like Magic Rub's points as well, but he is surely camping next to me.

Barbarian Rage (as dissected by Magic Rub):



Sounds like they don't have much control. I'm not much for planning exacting hits when in a blood frenzy, more smashing as hard & often as I can.



Wow "reckless"! I think that might mean that he wouldn't base his attacks around exacting hits like a sneak attack.



The bonus to the will saves are because he/she is enraged, charged with adrenalin. This makes him/her less susceptible to falling unconscious due to a hit, or falling victim to a spell (probably because he isn't listening). This does not infer that a barbarian has a higher wisdom score, & there by becoming more tactical. It's a moral bonus, he/she becomes more fearless.



Again this illustrates the "insane rage" aspect of the class. A Barbarian has a chance of dropping dead (-10 & beyond) when he/she comes out of the rage. Kinda' reminds me of the Hulk (the animalistic mentality Hulk), I don't think I've ever seen the Hulk place a tactical specific vital organ threatening hit.(the afore described Hulk) The general idea again is "HULK SMASH", not "Hulk smash better by walking behind bad guy, then poking bad guy in lung for more damage potential"



This would infer that he is a head to head fighter, not one for sneaking behind and executing a placed hit on a foe. The fact that he can't use Expertise should tell you something about his state of mind.

I am (obviously) of the opinion that the Rage of the barbarian class over rides the descriptor of the rouges sneak attack. If the Rage was so controlled & tactically capable then it would be a feat that any fighter could take, as opposed to the basis for an entire class as it is. As much as it would be cool to milk that extra damage out of the system by doing this, it is inconsistent & unpalatable from a character / gameplay prospective. I wouldn't do it as a player, nor would I allow it in my campaign.

But that's just me.

 

[Magic Rub]

Back Stab? What's this backstab you refer to?
(points jonethenrev towards one of those 'preconceived notions you prescribe to those who disagree with your conceived notions') Just in case you thought it was a product of my imagination.

Sorry I meant to say "Sneak attack" just a slip of the keys.


Caliban,

"rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot." This is partly why I don't think a Barb. should be able to / want to back stab. It may be just "zest" text, but it shows that there is thought & planning put into a sneak attack. Yes though I agree a rogue is indeed trained in the fine arts... of... well, the rogue. However as I've also pointed out before the barbarian lives in a realm where his ferial base emotions are prone to tearing through his self-control, & rational thought.

 

[Storm Raven]

What am I fighting this for, call it a house rule and smack down your way to happiness. Half-fiend, half-dragon,litch,storm giant,were-bear,back stabbing, raging, Barbarian, thief... from Thay Your DM will love you!

Just so long as you remember that your rule prohibiting sneak attacks while raging is the house rule I don't think anyone will really care one way or the other. But by the actual rules of the 3e PHB, the combination is perfectly legal.

 

[Caliban]

Sorry I meant to say "Sneak attack" just a slip of the keys.


Caliban,

"rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot." This is partly why I don't think a Barb. should be able to / want to back stab.

So you think Raging makes the Barbarian partially blind? Sorry, I missed the part where Raging gives your opponents concealment.

It may be just "zest" text, but it shows that there is thought & planning put into a sneak attack.

That text indicates that you need to see the target clearly. That's it.

Yes though I agree a rogue is indeed trained in the fine arts... of... well, the rogue. However as I've also pointed out before the barbarian lives in a realm where his ferial base emotions are prone to tearing through his self-control, & rational thought.

And a barbarian/rogue can do both. A barbarian/rogue is both a rogue and a barbarian, he is not just a barbarian who happens to sneak attack. Also, your view of the barbarian is not the only one. A barbarian rage can also be a coldly murderous state where they focus on rippinhg your throat or spleen out.

You seem to be trying to enforce your personal view of barbarians on the rules, and on other players. You shouldn't be telling people that they can only roleplay their class the way you would play it.

A sneak attack doesn't require rational thought, it just recquires the ability to recognize a vulnerable spot and attack it.

Also, Raging doesn't negate your ability to pick your shots or targets. If it did, you wouldn't be able to tell friend from foe, and would just attack everything indiscriminately.