Ruin Explorer
Legend
How so? The only benefit I see to Sentinel is that it would make the OA from the Echo stop movement. They can still disengage because being within 5' of the Echo is not being within "your reach".
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D&D 5E Rogue / Echo Knight
- Thread starter Mistwell
- Start date
How so? The only benefit I see to Sentinel is that it would make the OA from the Echo stop movement. They can still disengage because being within 5' of the Echo is not being within "your reach".
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
I didn't think echoes could hide or make opportunity attacks. Did I read that wrong?
Benjamin Olson
Hero
They can not take any actions themselves, so they can't take the hide action. They can only be hidden in the sense that any object can be hidden.
You can make opportunity attacks through them when an enemy exits melee range from them without disengaging, so functionally it is effectively equivalent to them getting standard opportunity attacks, except in the sense that they don't have their own reaction but rather this ability is activated through yours. They can not make whatever special opportunity attacks you get through special abilities from the likes of polearm master or sentinel because they are not you. Nor can such special opportunity attacks be done through them (possibly relevant if you have facing rules) because they can only be attacked through when you are taking the attack action or with the opportunity attacks triggered from a creature leaving their space.
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Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
The Echo is not hiding. The Rogue is hiding, and then choosing to make their attack from the Echo's location instead of their own. The Echo does not even count as a creature.
As for opportunity attacks, it's a specified ability the Rogue can do through the Echo.
Todd Roybark
Hero
The eyes of your familiar, are not your eyes. Which is why the interpretation of the word “you” matters.
Watching something transpire 3 feet away from you, is not the exact same as witnessing an event through a video camera.
The Familiar is seeing, the Echo Knight is pirating the video feed.
Either the Echo is functionally acting as the Echo Knight in terms of OA...which I imagine is the intent...(and stated in the rules)
or
the Echo can strike even when Disengage is used.
Technically it is not movement that allows the Echo to strike. It is the movement, while being seen, while being within 5e’ of the Echo, and moving at least 5e’ away.
One could argue that the very specific 4 part trigger for the OA like attack, supersedes the more general rule of the disengage rules.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
I can see that spot. It doesn't matter how I see it. "You" sees the spot. There is no video camera analysis in the game. This is how all spells with sight work with familiars, not just this one. It works that way with scrying too. As long as you're able to see the spot, however that is accomplished, you can do something which requires sight of that spot. If "You" had that kind of restriction, then you couldn't make even a perception check using a familiar because it asks if you can see the target. This is silly - you do in fact see the spot, even if it's using another's eyes.
Todd Roybark
Hero
Except, it may matter, depending on the DM. I might not find a cheap pane of glass would block line of effect for a Charm Person spell, but another DM might.
If a DM doesnt want someone using a spider familiar to act as a breaching unit for the Echo, then he or she might use this strict construction, to justify saying “no”.
You asked for thoughts, Mistwell, not just the thoughts you like.
I’m not saying it is the correct ruling, but the line from Find Familiar...about seeing through the Familiar’s Eyes could cause some mischief for this usage of the two powers.
Echo Avatar at 7th level, has a gigantic range.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Okay, I have looked at the rules, and here is my DM's ruling:
1) When possessing your familiar, you can only use your familiar's abilities, not class abilities. As another example, a druid cannot wildshape their familiar into a bear. So you CANNOT summon an echo whilst possessing your familiar. This is irrespective of what you can an cannot see.
2) An echo cannot hide, nor can it be hidden. So it can never qualify for a sneak attack from hiding. If the PC uses their bonus action to switch places with the echo then they are no longer hidden. The PC can set up a sneak attack from the echo by way of being an adjacent ally though.
1) When possessing your familiar, you can only use your familiar's abilities, not class abilities. As another example, a druid cannot wildshape their familiar into a bear. So you CANNOT summon an echo whilst possessing your familiar. This is irrespective of what you can an cannot see.
2) An echo cannot hide, nor can it be hidden. So it can never qualify for a sneak attack from hiding. If the PC uses their bonus action to switch places with the echo then they are no longer hidden. The PC can set up a sneak attack from the echo by way of being an adjacent ally though.
Benjamin Olson
Hero
I mean, rule as you like, but looking through the familiar involves being blinded and deafened. You do not lose control of your own body in any other way. Yes, you can't apply your abilities like wild-shaping to the familiar, but that is different than using the familiar's senses while operating your own body and its abilities.
I'm disinclined to read things conservatively here in part because either the character has invested 3 levels in a particular warlock with a particular invocation to be able to pull this sort of fairly situational trick, or they have only a basic familiar that they need to use their action to see through, which generally eliminates using this sight with most the spells, abilities, etc. that make use of sight. Whoopee, they can use their familiar's eyes to teleport through a wall. Now they are separated from the group and can get killed.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Those are both really not good rulings from a RAW/RAI perspective. I mean, obviously, your game, your rules, but the first doesn't even resemble 5E's rules, and the second, whilst not as far from them, does go off a basic misunderstanding (one that has been discussed).
1) - Just straight up made-up rules with no basis. A Druid couldn't wildshape his familiar into a bear (obviously!), but he could definitely wildshape himself into a bear, whilst viewing through his familiar (not sure why you're using this word "possessing" - this isn't what's happening). You don't "become" the familiar. It isn't wildshape or polymorph or something. You merely view/listen through it. You're blind/deaf from your body like you've put on a VR helmet, not "possessing" the familiar. You still have proprioception (particularly important here), touch, smell, taste, heat/vibration/etc. and so on.
The actual rules, for reference:
"While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any Special Senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own Senses."
Note that it is an action to do this, so you can only move and do things that are a bonus action/reaction/free action/no action. So that's what would stop you doing Wildshape, unless you somehow had two actions, not anything else.
2) An Echo isn't a creature, so no it isn't an "adjacent ally" for anyone and you're not going off RAW and it's questionable if it's RAI for the rest, so...
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