D&D 5E Rogue / Echo Knight

[Paul Farquhar]

2) An Echo isn't a creature, so no it isn't an "adjacent ally" for anyone and you're not going off RAW and it's questionable if it's RAI for the rest, so...

I know it's not strictly RAW (RAW is for idiots), but it is strictly logical - if someone is fighting the knight and the echo simultaneously they have no choice but to treat both as "real" opponents, since a real attack could come from either. Ergo it is just the same as fighting two opponents.

As for the other, there is no rule that says you can use class abilities whilst using your familiar's senses, and in actual gameplay the familiar is being directly controlled by the player, no matter wat the text says.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I know it's not strictly RAW (RAW is for idiots), but it is strictly logical - if someone is fighting the knight and the echo simultaneously they have no choice but to treat both as "real" opponents, since a real attack could come from either. Ergo it is just the same as fighting two opponents.

I mean, I can buy that, it's not even close to RAW, just as a note (which I don't think is "for idiots" anywhere near as much as "totally ignoring RAW" is "for idiots" - about 70% of the the silliest and/or most perverse rulings I've seen are from ignoring/not understanding RAW* - the other 30% are following it ruthlessly). I think it actually makes the Echo significantly more powerful than allowing the Hide-Attack-Hide-Attack-Hide-etc. sequence proposed by Mistwell.

What about the Echo provoking OAs? By your logic here it would seem that it could, but I'm pretty sure the design is based on it not doing so.

* = The classic being "I made up this rule to cover this problem that only exists because I didn't understand the rules!". Not to be rude, but your Familiar ruling is in this category.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

What about the Echo provoking OAs? By your logic here it would seem that it could, but I'm pretty sure the design is based on it not doing so.

You could attack the echo, but the echo is insubstantial so the attack has no effect. An attack that does nothing = no attack.

It's basically the same as using your reaction to take a swing at empty space.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You could attack the echo, but the echo is insubstantial so the attack has no effect.

But you can normally attack the Echo and it has 1HP and a fixed AC and you can kill it. So you're proposing a specific immunity to OAs? I mean that's fine and matches the design intent I think, just checking.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

But you can normally attack the Echo and it has 1HP and a fixed AC and you can kill it. So you're proposing a specific immunity to OAs? I mean that's fine and matches the design intent I think, just checking.

Yes, I'm interpreting the echo as quasi-real. Sometimes it is real enough to attack and be hit, other times it is not.

 

[Mistwell]

Okay, I have looked at the rules, and here is my DM's ruling:

1) When possessing your familiar, you can only use your familiar's abilities, not class abilities.

Wait, what? If you're in a tiny hut you cast, and you see through your familiars eyes, your tiny hut goes down because you cannot use your class abilities and spells are your class abilities?

Nobody is saying the Familiar is using the Knight's class ability! It's not the familiar creating the Echo, it's still you, of course!

2) An echo cannot hide, nor can it be hidden. So it can never qualify for a sneak attack from hiding.

The scenario in question does not involve the Echo being hidden. The Echo is not doing anything. It's not trying to sneak, it's not making an attack, it's not making a sneak attack. I think you misunderstood that scenario. The Echo is not a creature.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The scenario in question does not involve the Echo being hidden. The Echo is not doing anything. It's not trying to sneak, it's not making an attack, it's not making a sneak attack. I think you misunderstood that scenario. The Echo is not a creature.

No, I understand perfectly. The PC hides in a box and makes a sneak attack from the echo.

As I said, RAW is for idiots.

 

[Mistwell]

No, I understand perfectly. The PC hides in a box and makes a sneak attack from the echo.

As I said, RAW is for idiots.

A box? No, he's hiding behind an ally which is what his race, and only his race, can do. It's a specifically listed ability the lightfoot halfling can accomplish. If you don't like it, that's fine I guess you can ban the race or modify it for your game. But assuming you're OK with the lightfoot halfling (and I've never heard anyone claim they're not OK), then what exactly is the objection here? Three levels of an entire other class just to do some minor things which they could achieve with fewer levels in other classes if just doing those things was the goal.

 

[Todd Roybark]

then what exactly is the objection here?

In practical terms you are asking for a semi-solid, grayscale, Tupac Shakur hologram, that used to be at the Coachella Festival, be ruled as Hidden, despite the fact the hologram is standing right in front of it’s target, stabbing with a rapier.

A clearly visible drone in Afghanistan, should not count as Hidden, just because you cannot see the operator in another part of the world.

Even if the operator is a halfling, doesn’t change the visible fact that the point of delivery of the attack is quite visible.

Now if both the Echo and the Halfling Echo Knight were Hidden, (say the Echo was in an area of the Darkness spell, and the halfling was Hidden, outside the Darkness effect), my ruling would be the attack gets Advantage.

By RAW an 7th level Echo Knight of ANY race, under the effect of an Greater Invisibility spell, would have advantage on any attack that used the Echo Avatar as the point of delivery....even if the completely visible Echo was 1000 feet away.
strains credulity

Back to the original post, the Assassin subclass could work well with Echo Knight.
Careful use of the Echo means one can use the Echo and Unleash Incarnation to get attacks on Surprised creatures, and creatures that have not gone yet in combat, (and thus get Advantage).

Alas, you would not get Death Strike, but Assassinate and Unleash Incarnation, would be scary and effective.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

A clearly visible drone in Afghanistan, should not count as Hidden, just because you cannot see the operator in another part of the world.

Even if the operator is a halfling, doesn’t change the visible fact that the point of delivery of the attack is quite visible.

Wait are we discussing D&D or Shadowrun?

Also, totally unrelated but my next Shadowrun character will be a Rigger who kills people with aerial drones whilst distracting them with holograms of Tupac Shakur. Original Character DO NOT STEAL.