Rogue Poisoner lv. 3

[TremorFang]

They are helpful indeed.

I originally was thinking of having STR at 12 so that if I went mutagen or feral mutagen and chose to increase STR, I would then have a solid 16 with claw and bite attacks. Problem with this, is that I would be lowering my INT to gain that STR. While I would have plenty INT, I'd rather keep it high I would think.

So, you suggest putting the race bonus to the DEX then. Not against it, for the reasons you mentioned. I do hate missing.

The reason I chose Skill Focus, is for a few different reasons. 1) mainly to make sure I can make almost any poison with relative ease [minus the outlandish time and some monies]. 2) Since I would have a higher score, wouldn't that mean I can make alchemy items quickly? [Thought that is how it worked, total roll * DC]. 3) It just sorta fits my character.

I am not against the point blank shot/precise shot, I actually really like it. Though I don't necessarily like point blank for a feat, however I love precise shot.

I may just end up going with infusion to help out the team more [or be evil and try to make them pay with money or favors for some extracts]. I think a mutagen to my DEX can help fill the void a little bit for not having precise shot.

I think I will stick with True Strike just because it may be more useful if I use infusion and pass it around.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Dingo333]

A few notes, the mutagen penalty to mental stats only lasts as long as the mutagen does so if you are taking the mutagen, just be sure you are done with bombs for a while

Point Blank is very important, it adds an additional +1 to attacks and damage when within 30 ft, throwing daggers and bombs are both in this range and it is a prereq for precise shot, which your party may get upset about depending how melee they are

Also note that you can buy scrolls to add spells to your formula book. I would recommend true strike and mage armor to this end

and Qik is right about the bomber's eye, if you are throwing any weapons it is a should have, not a need but it will always be useful

 

[paradox42]

It's a shame there isn't a variant of the Bomb class feature that can splash targets with poison; it'd work very well with your character's idiom (though throwing breakable vials of poison as if they were alchemist's fire or something would work just as well I suppose- but you have to actually craft those in advance). Poison Bomb isn't until 12th, and makes a cloud rather than a splash of specific contact poison- not exactly what you're about. Without those options, the Bomb class feature is pretty irrelevant to what you want to do.

I have to disagree about Skill Focus being a bad choice; with the character as described- his focus is toward crafting and using poison, not any other class feature of Alchemist- in fact he only chose Alchemist as a class at all because it happens to be better for making poisons than a Rogue of same level. Point-Blank and Precise Shot are feats you want, definitely- but Skill Focus is more important for what you really want to do. As you correctly noted, your check result affects crafting time- but it should also interest you to know that the Craft rules allow you to increase the DC by +10 in order to get it done even faster. So Skill Focus becomes even more useful to you this way. At low level you won't really be able to use that option often, but with all your bonuses you might be able to use it- which would be impressive at 3rd level!

Mage Armor isn't actually an Alchemist extract, so he can't learn it even from a scroll- but Shield is. It's not quite as good as Mage Armor, but it's pretty close. If you want to replace Comprehend Languages, I would second the recommendation for Bomber's Eye (the name puts you off from the fact that it can help you throw daggers too), or possibly consider Expeditious Retreat. Extra movement is not only helpful when enemies notice that you're using poison; it has lots of other uses in a typical adventuring environment- one example would be circling around enemies to strike from the rear. Another would be getting a large bonus on Acrobatics checks to jump, if you need to jump a chasm or something (a lot of people forget/overlook the rules about movement speed above 30 ft. giving a bonus to jumps- the Expeditious Retreat spell description even mentions it specifically and people still forget about it).

EDIT: It also occurs to me that "poisoner" is such an obvious role for the Alchemist class to play, that Paizo might base an Archetype for Alchemist on it in Ultimate Magic (we know they're introducing new Archetypes for the classes covered in that book, including even the Magus which is first introduced in that same book), but of course I have no way to know that for sure in advance. Even so, if the game isn't starting for a month or so, or your GM is willing to let you retroactively change your character with a new Archetype after the game starts, it might be worth waiting for Ultimate Magic before you finalize your character.

 

[Dingo333]

[MENTION=29746]paradox42[/MENTION]

An alchemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs and time requirements. An alchemist can study a wizard’s spellbook to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the spellbook contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from a formula book. An alchemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them.

This is from Alchemist - Pathfinder_OGC

My group took that to mean they could copy any wizard spell outta a wizard spell book into a formula they could drink (as you can also make mage armor into a potion and my group equated extract to potions for game play)

 

[TremorFang]

I recently talked with my DM and he said that he would be willing to let me use the poisoner rogues ability to alter a poisons introduction (i.e. Inhalation to Injury, etc...) as a discovery, simply because it made sense that an alchemist would have that sort of skill. That being the case I may replace the concentrate poison discovery with the master poisoner talent / discovery, or possibly infusion if you guys truly believe that I can get by on a 14 craft skill when making poisons and other alchemical items; and use the skill focus feat on point blank and the 3rd level feat on precise shot.

Don't forget though, next level offers another discovery. So I could wait on either Feral Mutagen, Infusion or the Master Poisoner that my DM is allowing until the next level. Although, I am not sure if we will make it as far as the next level since I don't know how often we plan on playing per month.

I like skill focus, because it allows me to attempt to create more elaborate poisons more easily at first level. The only thing then stopping me is of course the money.

I like Precise Shot obviously because -4 is quite a penalty.

Question: If I throw and hit an opponent with my bomb and my team is attacking at one side of him, do they get hit with splash damage from my bomb?

Would it be better to just throw behind the opponent, where my party is not standing?

Lastly a more random question. Does anyone know the rules and cost for making a secret pocket on say a backpack? After all carrying around poisons in plain sight isn't all that smart.

Thanks for the info again guys.

 

[Dingo333]

If you throw a bomb at an enemy in melee with your allies, they will get hit with the splash. The reason you don't normally throw the bomb behind someone (so they are only caught in the splash) is because it only deals minimal damage (3rd level would be 6) and they get a reflex save (DC 15 at your current level and stats) to half that

There is a discovery, Precise Bomb, that allows you to say "these squares are safe from bomb damage" equal your int mod, but if the bomb misses, this discovery has no effect.

But over all, if you are careful where you toss your bombs, you should be fine
I would keep a dagger ready to poison and toss when it is bad to be bomber man

As for the pocket, I believe a sleight of hand check will cover you, that or buy a cart and hide them in there and keep only a vial or 2 on you

 

[paradox42]

My group took that to mean they could copy any wizard spell outta a wizard spell book into a formula they could drink (as you can also make mage armor into a potion and my group equated extract to potions for game play)

Key words in that quote are "to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell." (emphasis mine) "Formula" specifically refers to entries on the Alchemist Extract list- if it's not on there, then the Alchemist can't learn it from a spellbook.

That said, I as a GM would allow an Alchemist to have Mage Armor on his Extract list; I don't really see why they should have one and not the other. There are a few other spells I'd be okay with adding too, like Detect Scrying and Vampiric Touch. So, TremorFang's GM might be similarly flexible if asked- and if he wants Mage Armor, I say go for it. I was just pointing out that by RAW, it's not allowed.

As for "getting by" with a Craft modifier of +14, I'd say that's pretty good yes! The real question is really, do you feel comfortable doing that, knowing that you could in fact get it higher if you wanted to? Really, being only 3rd level, you're pretty unlikely to be able to scrounge up the gold necessary to make the really good/nasty poisons often (or at all) anyway, so it might make sense to wait for a level or two.

It does disrupt your character's focus a bit if he goes for Infusion rather than Master Poisoner or Concentrate Poison, but if he's been with this party for a while (i.e.- he started adventuring with them at level 1, even if that adventuring didn't actually take place in game sessions as a PC) then Infusion makes sense. He'd have at least some desire to help his teammates unless his alignment is Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil, and even in those two cases there's an argument for a highly intelligent character to help the team out of enlightened self-interest.

It's cool your GM is okay with allowing Master Poisoner as a Discovery; and getting back to my bet that there's going to be a Poisoner Archetype for the Alchemist in Ultimate Magic, I'd be genuinely surprised if the Archetypes didn't get access to special Discoveries (like that) anyway. Even if they don't, or there is no Poisoner Archetype in that book, nothing says you and your GM can't make one.

Secret pockets are not directly covered in present Pathfinder rules, that I'm aware of, but Dingo is correct that a Sleight of Hand check should be good enough to cover the case. I'd suggest that, assuming you have 1 or more ranks in it (remember, it can't be used untrained), then you would be able to combine it with Craft (Leatherworking) to create a secret pocket that would require a Perception check to notice. The check DC would be based on your Sleight of Hand modifier, or perhaps a check made during crafting, or some such thing. That crafting idea isn't RAW though, just my suggestion; ask your GM how he wants to handle it and see what your options are.

 

[TremorFang]

Looking back through the poison list, I think you are right. The ones that I would most likely be able to afford are ones that have a DC of 14 or less. Seeing this, plus the suggestions given, I am willing to change the Skill Focus to Point Blank Shot and use the 3rd level gained feat on precise shot.

I am still between Infusion and the Master Poisoner that my DM allowed. We are starting our game at lv 3, forgot to mention that. The silly thing is, although Infusion would be helpful to the rest of the party, it would actually fit my characters personality not to have it, at least right off the bat.

His personality being obsessive almost to the point of compulsive about alchemy. What I mean by this is that when he isn't in battle or being forced to listen, he is sort of off in his own world, most likely staring blankly thinking of possible formulae, ingredients and other things like this. So most of the time he isn't even paying attention to the other team-mates, unless they really call for his attention. He is this way mostly because of a tragedy in the characters past.

On the other hand he is still a sort of a shrewd business man. So he may be willing to give them an infusion for money, a favor or just because he may want to stay relevant enough for them to need him.

As far as the secret pocket goes, I think I found a pathfinder item that may be somewhat an equivalent to it. "Chest, false bottomed. The secret compartment in this chest is approximately 1 inch thick. Different styles open from the inside, from the underside, or through the back. Detecting the compartment is a DC 20 Perception check."

Cost wise it is double the cost of a Huge Chest. Not entirely sure how to make this change this to a cost of a pocket though. The reason I asked originally is my DM being the generous person he is said that he would allow me to make one of the smaller pockets of the Handy Haversack a secret pocket, but that I needed to figure out the rules and potential cost of that.

Since you guys have helped out so much, maybe you could give me a suggestion for a couple traits that would be potentially handy. I was thinking about the ones that make Bluff and Diplomacy class skills so that my character could talk better, but there may be others that would be more fitting and useful that I don't know about.

I will try to decide between Infusion or Master Poisoner soon, thanks again for all of the help.