Rogue Power Interpretation Help

[DEFCON 1]

Riga, can you actually have a Secondary Attack without an actual attack roll? Unless I'm mistaken, having an Attack line means by definition that there is an attack roll. If there's no attack roll (like the new MM for example) then it's not listed as an Attack: line, it's listed as an Effect.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Riga, can you actually have a Secondary Attack without an actual attack roll? Unless I'm mistaken, having an Attack line means by definition that there is an attack roll. If there's no attack roll (like the new MM for example) then it's not listed as an Attack: line, it's listed as an Effect.

Thats a good point... The other thing I neglected as dealing damage as an effect may not apply sneak attack damage either...

 

[DEFCON 1]

As I think about it, I believe MrMyth has it right, in that it is a poorly worded/ordered power.

A 'hit' in the Compendium is defined as an attack roll that equals or exceeds the defense score of the target. So the completion of the Attack: line in a power is what constitutes a 'hit'... not the location of where the Hit: line in the power appears. So putting an Effect: line before the Hit: (ie damage) line in order to imply that while you don't have Combat Advantage for the Attack (thus no +2), you do have it for the damage roll (thus gaining Sneak Attack)... is a noble attempt to make the power look "clean"... but does not actually follow the rules they have set up as far as power design.

The Hit: line should basically always appear directly after the Attack: line, so as to not confuse the issue. And any adds or adjustments to the damage/result of the attack should be listed within the Hit: line itself, not attempted to be gained via Effect lines.

Thus I'd go with MrMyth's first example as a properly worded power:

Attack: Dex vs. AC
Hit: 2[w]+Dex, and the target is knocked prone. You may apply Sneak Attack damage on this attack even if you did not have Combat Advantage before the attack.

This layout may not "look" like what the fluff description is trying to imply... but adding an Effect: line before a Hit: line does not / should not change or add to what the Hit: line says.

 

[DracoSuave]

Copypasta from the updates:

When you make an attack with a light blade, a hand
crossbow, a shortbow, or a sling and hit an enemy
granting combat advantage to you, that enemy takes
extra damage based on your level. You can deal this
extra damage only once per turn.

Looking at the power, it goes

Attack: blah vs blah
Effect: blah
Hit: Stuff.

So, executing these in order...

Attack comes first, so you roll the attack roll. Whether or not you hit is determined here.
The Effect knocks them prone.
Then, if you hit, the Hit line deals damage.

Sneak attack checks when you attack with a specific weapon and hit an enemy granting combat damage. You hit or miss when you make an attack roll, not when you resolve the -results- of the hit.

Knocking them prone after the attack roll (and therefore the hit is made) will not effect the damage dealt. And again, you resolve things in order. Roll attack, knock them prone, deal the damage. This power might be written the way it does, so that you can force them prone without it affecting sneak attack damage, but before you deal damage so that if it has a reaction to damage that causes it to shift, it cannot use that reaction.

The Hit line does not determine when you hit, it determines what you do IF you hit.

 

[CovertOps]

I'd write it this way.

Effect: You knock the target prone. You cannot gain the +2 to hit normally granted by CA from this effect for this attack. If you already had CA some other way (flanking, target was prone before this effect, etc.) then you may take the +2.
Attack: Dex vs. AC
Hit: 2[w]+Dex.

 

[MrMyth]

But wouldn't this then indicate that you'd get to gain Combat Advantage for the Attack roll too? So not only do you gain Sneak Attack damage on the Hit line, but you also gain a +2 to the attack roll on the Attack line because of CA. And it doesn't seem like that was the intention of the power.

Your first method of writing does certainly give you the effect that I think they were looking for, however.

Yeah, exactly. The first method is more in line with what I think is the intent of the power, while the second one is cleaner and closer to what is actually written (but also more powerful.)

 

[DracoSuave]

I'd write it this way.

Effect: You knock the target prone. You cannot gain the +2 to hit normally granted by CA from this effect for this attack. If you already had CA some other way (flanking, target was prone before this effect, etc.) then you may take the +2.
Attack: Dex vs. AC
Hit: 2[w]+Dex.

Forget that.

Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: Knock the target prone, and deal 2[w] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Miss: Knock the target prone.

 

[MrMyth]

Forget that.

Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: Knock the target prone, and deal 2[w] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Miss: Knock the target prone.

A better version of that might be:

Attack: Dex vs. AC
Hit: 2[W]+Dex, and you may apply Sneak Attack damage on this attack even if you did not have Combat Advantage before the attack.
Effect: The target is knocked prone.

This gets you no CA on the attack roll, but yes to Sneak Attack on the damage, and the target ends up prone either way.

Or, if you want a somewhat non-intuitive but relatively simple approach:

Effect: The target is knocked prone.
Attack: Dex - 2 vs AC.
Hit: 2[W] + Dex.

The downside of this is that, if you would have CA already, you are at a net penalty to hit. If you didn't have CA, though, the penalty balances out and everything processes in a simple order.

 

[the Jester]

While the wording is confusing, I think the intent is:

Roll to hit. You don't have combat advantage (well, unless you do for some other reason already I guess); thus no +2 to the attack roll (unless etc as before).

Knock the target prone whether you hit or miss.

Deal damage. The target is now prone, and you thus gain combat advantage and deal sneak attack damage.

In the case of a monster that doesn't grant CA for being prone (? don't know of any off hand but I could see it for a Drunken Monkey Kung Fu type or ooze or something), you don't get to sneak attack unless you have CA from something else.

 

[Saeviomagy]

It's a reflex targeting, charging, automatic-proning encounter power available at level 3.

I really don't think that it needs to get any extra benefits (especially if they're going to be so complex to implement). Move the effect to after the damage roll, and done.