Rogue: Pure skill personified

[StreamOfTheSky]

Alright, fair enough. The only thing I'm wondering now is whether or not the free Skill Focus for two skills every 3 levels is too much. I mean, doesn't this quickly negate almost every other party members' skills? And also, doesn't this speed the arrival of that level beyond which there is no more reason to put ranks into skills (because of essential auto-successes)?

I don't think it's too much, nor will it negate other PCs. Take Perception. Any wis-based class w/ it as a class skill will likely be on par with the rogue or better, especially now that wis is established as a dump stat. Rogue's highest stats would be dex and int, and spellcraft and most knowledges aren't class skills...and I'd still expect a wizard or witch to have higher int, so no obsoleting there. Dex skills rogue might surpass others, but...not sure that's a bad thing. In any case, it's only a +3 or +6 bonus. In 3E by 10th level (when skill focus jumps from +3 to +6), a class skill was 13 ranks max, a cross-class was 6.5.

I don't think it hastens the arrival of skills being auto-success too much. Certainly still want the 10 ranks for the +6, at least. And the Epic Skills would entice you to keep putting ranks in the skills, too.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think this is an excellent fix so far. More epic skill uses would be nice, but I'm sure there are more coming.

I would particularly like to see some epic uses of Use Magic Device, perhaps allowing the Rogue to substitute her class level for the caster level on items, maybe even her intelligence modifier for the save DC of items.

I would also expand the Rogue class skill list of all skills. This would compensate at lower levels for Rogues who want to branch out into several different kinds of skills without worrying whether it's a class skill or not.

Thanks. I was planning on such things for UMD. One to use rogue's int to set save DC. Another to use rogue level as the CL against any foe who is flanked or lost dex to AC. Maybe another to have UMD replicate some functions of Spellcraft. I don't know, IME as a high level rogue its awkward to try and walk into a shop and request scrolls of dim door or a wand of grease or whatever and verify thats what it is when you have no spellcraft. Not every rogue has the luxury of a pet wizard to go shopping with / examine ill gotten gains. And yet, rogue's somehow supposed to obtain and use all these things by the rules she has no real means to ID.

Don't think rogue getting all class skills is a good idea, though. Too cheesy for dipping. Especially in PF, where getting it as a class skill and dropping a single rank in is all you need to benefit. You could do a similar thing in 3E w/ Factotum + Able Learner feat but a) that cost a feat! and b) Having it as a class skill in and of itself didn't much matter if you didn't actually max that sucker out, draining your skill points.
Doing that in PF would be too cheesy for dippers. I could ammend the every 3 levels ability to either gain skill focus or gain a class skill, choose which each time (could even do one of each option at a given level) maybe.

 

[Loonook]

Thanks. I was planning on such things for UMD. One to use rogue's int to set save DC. Another to use rogue level as the CL against any foe who is flanked or lost dex to AC. Maybe another to have UMD replicate some functions of Spellcraft. I don't know, IME as a high level rogue its awkward to try and walk into a shop and request scrolls of dim door or a wand of grease or whatever and verify thats what it is when you have no spellcraft. Not every rogue has the luxury of a pet wizard to go shopping with / examine ill gotten gains. And yet, rogue's somehow supposed to obtain and use all these things by the rules she has no real means to ID.

I also think that the Rogue, when presented with the option to sneak attack, should possibly get a 'sneak spell' feature. Something that boosts his wand attack spells similar to Arcane Strike, allowing him to add a certain amount of difficulty to a save/additional damage/spell resistance penetration to the effect.

UMD also seems like an enemy-mine situation if ever I heard one. Rogues who can ignore/debuff a magic-toting target when making a sneak attack would be akin to the Mageslayer feats.

Don't think rogue getting all class skills is a good idea, though. Too cheesy for dipping. Especially in PF, where getting it as a class skill and dropping a single rank in is all you need to benefit. You could do a similar thing in 3E w/ Factotum + Able Learner feat but a) that cost a feat! and b) Having it as a class skill in and of itself didn't much matter if you didn't actually max that sucker out, draining your skill points.
Doing that in PF would be too cheesy for dippers. I could ammend the every 3 levels ability to either gain skill focus or gain a class skill, choose which each time (could even do one of each option at a given level) maybe.

Why not produce something akin to the Expert? A Rogue can take any X + 2xInt modifier skills as 'class skills'. The numbers would have to be tweaked a bit, but the premise allows for what you're going for (the utterly flexible rogue who gains skill-based 'tricks' to bump himself up).

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[SteelDraco]

I had some similar thoughts about rebuilding the rogue, but have concerns and thoughts about how some of this is implemented. Anything I don't mention I'm a fan of, and I'm pretty sure most of the inspiration for the rogue remake I'm planning comes from a previous draft of this you posted somewhere on these boards, so I'm generally a fan of this as a project.

The Skill Focus doesn't seem necessary in light of the other changes you're making. I know you've stated a desire to considerably increase the power of the monk and rogue classes; I just feel like you're overshooting the mark for me. That's a design decision you've stated, though. As written, Skill Focus doesn't do much for Epic Skills - most of them don't seem to actually require skill checks, so being able to get high rolls isn't relevant, just the ranks you have. At a certain point a result of 47 just isn't that different from a 41, or whatever.

You seem to not be using the rogue talents mechanic much, which I feel is undervalued because the existing ones suck. I'd rather see those rewritten to be improved and include some kind of point-based per-day mechanic like the ninja's ki pool - I've been favoring calling it a cunning pool for Int-based rogues and a panache pool for Charisma-based rogues (with "Panache Rogue" as an archetype that basically just says "switch out Int for Charisma in class abilities"). I've also considered implementing it as a grit-like mechanic that refills when the rogue does appropriately rogue-y things, like dropping enemies with sneak attack and winning opposed skill checks by a wide enough margin.

I like the idea of giving rogues a bonus to initiative - it should be something rogues are awesome at. My plan was to give them a bonus equal to their Int modifier as long as they have any points in their cunning pool. I was going to have a talent that allowed them to act normally in a surprise round - I think the "take a penalty to your roll if you want to act normally" mechanic you have is a bit needlessly complicated.

Not sure why you have two pools of class ability points, a ki pool and an "epic skill pool" that shows up at 10th level. Wouldn't it make sense to have the epic skills spend points from the ki pool?

I can see an argument for good Will saves, but I'd almost rather have the rogue be able to get a bonus to saves from his ki pool if he wants to spend the point. A resource of "luck" or "cunning" that can run out fits better to me than a rogue just being as good at resisting mental effects as a cleric or wizard.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Just remembered that I didn't consider the 20th level capstones. I guess just let player choose one or the other. *shrug*

Why not produce something akin to the Expert? A Rogue can take any X + 2xInt modifier skills as 'class skills'. The numbers would have to be tweaked a bit, but the premise allows for what you're going for (the utterly flexible rogue who gains skill-based 'tricks' to bump himself up).

Because the expert is a generic "great at X skills" class, while rogue actually has some flavor and fluff attached. Certain skills are just "rogue skills" and others are not. I'm hesitant to veer from that, as I like the flavor of rogues, it's why they're my favorite class. I have every skill listed for epic skills right now, but...I don't plan on actually creating techniques for all of them. Some, like spellcraft or knowledges, may get none at all. Others like Acrobatics and Escape Artist, obviously will have many options.

I had some similar thoughts about rebuilding the rogue, but have concerns and thoughts about how some of this is implemented. Anything I don't mention I'm a fan of, and I'm pretty sure most of the inspiration for the rogue remake I'm planning comes from a previous draft of this you posted somewhere on these boards, so I'm generally a fan of this as a project.

The Skill Focus doesn't seem necessary in light of the other changes you're making. I know you've stated a desire to considerably increase the power of the monk and rogue classes; I just feel like you're overshooting the mark for me. That's a design decision you've stated, though. As written, Skill Focus doesn't do much for Epic Skills - most of them don't seem to actually require skill checks, so being able to get high rolls isn't relevant, just the ranks you have. At a certain point a result of 47 just isn't that different from a 41, or whatever.

You seem to not be using the rogue talents mechanic much, which I feel is undervalued because the existing ones suck. I'd rather see those rewritten to be improved and include some kind of point-based per-day mechanic like the ninja's ki pool - I've been favoring calling it a cunning pool for Int-based rogues and a panache pool for Charisma-based rogues (with "Panache Rogue" as an archetype that basically just says "switch out Int for Charisma in class abilities"). I've also considered implementing it as a grit-like mechanic that refills when the rogue does appropriately rogue-y things, like dropping enemies with sneak attack and winning opposed skill checks by a wide enough margin.

I like the idea of giving rogues a bonus to initiative - it should be something rogues are awesome at. My plan was to give them a bonus equal to their Int modifier as long as they have any points in their cunning pool. I was going to have a talent that allowed them to act normally in a surprise round - I think the "take a penalty to your roll if you want to act normally" mechanic you have is a bit needlessly complicated.

Not sure why you have two pools of class ability points, a ki pool and an "epic skill pool" that shows up at 10th level. Wouldn't it make sense to have the epic skills spend points from the ki pool?

I can see an argument for good Will saves, but I'd almost rather have the rogue be able to get a bonus to saves from his ki pool if he wants to spend the point. A resource of "luck" or "cunning" that can run out fits better to me than a rogue just being as good at resisting mental effects as a cleric or wizard.

Thanks. And other than merging the two classes and the specifics of the epic skills, most of this stuff I have floated around for over a year now, you probably saw it somewhere. Your concerns are all valid, and I have been considering them as well.

- Skill Focus: It's a sloppy patchwork fix. I want rogues to be able to excel at or at least nearly equal any other class at their most valued skills, like they could in 3E. I've found, from in game experience and examining the numbers, that other than Disable Device, rogues seem to be easily outshone by at least one other class at every other skill, usually by many other classes. Even something as intrinsic as stealth, archer ranger and monk do it as good or better bonus-wise, and bring other benefits to the table (ranger: spell buffs, favored terrain, and camo / HiPS; monk: ability to stealth mode at great speed). I'd definitely be open to something else, but I do want some mechanic to help the rogue ensure he can be top tier at at least some skills. As for Epic Skills, the original thought was to give a gigantic bonus on a skill check roll for the purposes of using them and then actually have the rogue attempt the epic skill DCs (which could reach 100+ in some cases!). I quickly realized how silly and messy that'd be and scrapped it for a merit-based "must be this tall to ride" system based on ranks.

- I agree rogue talents suck. I kinda just figured a rogue w/ these houserules would pick ninja tricks. Why spend effort fixing talents when paizo already did the work for me (with some issues, though) by making ninja tricks?

- It might be too complicated. As long as they get something to boost initiative and surprise round actions, I'll be happy. Just sick of these War or Time mystery Oracles, Tactics domain Clerics, Sohei Monks, Diviner Wizards, and gods knows what else getting all these massive initiative boons and rogue getting zilch. That ain't right. It just ain't!

- It is awkward to have 2 pools. However,
1) I don't think ninja gets enough ki points to support both functions currently. Especially after the nerfs from playtest to final version (some ki costs went up and originally most of the tricks gave you one free usage per day before they cost ki to use additional times). If there were a ki recharge mechanic like you suggested this may not be an issue.
2) I figured these were more powerful than anything you could spend a ki point on, even compared to most advanced ninja tricks. Maybe not, Invisible Blade and a few others ARE pretty good, and don't have the high skill rank requirements epic skills do...
Making it all work off of ki pool and giving a reliable recharge mechanic to get significantly more ki per day than currently allowed may be the best solution.

- Saves is the only thing I disagree completely with you on. Having a constant good base will save can represent luck just as well as having some ki point held in reserve and (in light of your other criticisms) is less complicated. I actually think high will suits a rogue well. Rogues have always been depicted as plucky and with a knack for wriggling out of mind affecting spells (Slippery Mind).

 

[Loonook]

Because the expert is a generic "great at X skills" class, while rogue actually has some flavor and fluff attached. Certain skills are just "rogue skills" and others are not. I'm hesitant to veer from that, as I like the flavor of rogues, it's why they're my favorite class. I have every skill listed for epic skills right now, but...I don't plan on actually creating techniques for all of them. Some, like spellcraft or knowledges, may get none at all. Others like Acrobatics and Escape Artist, obviously will have many options.

I can totally understand that, and like that you have that view. However, there are so many awesome little tricks the Rogue could get. Honestly I like the idea a lot of a rogue using those skills and gaining dastardly little things they know how to do, the whole "I know something you don't know" tricks in spellcraft alone present some interesting options.

"The wards coming in were a nice touch... I suspect you learned them in study from Master Gillian's Ars Abjura? I noticed the curving text in the lines binding the captured there, though there is a gap in the protective aura if you know where to find it."

"Now Apprentice Jim I want you to pay attention here. Stoneskin and Mage Armor. The two fields and their overlap can be seen if you look at the effects as they cross near the heart and the neck. If you strike at this location when the target is not focused you can easily penetrate the two wards, getting right in there and twist the knife."

Rogues are those hustlers who spend three months in jail learning how to throw a key into a keyhole from thirty paces. They trade secrets of their craft, hone their skills, and are generally dangerous for their knowledge. The only flash in the rogue's arsenal is the gleam of the knife... Or the look in their eyes when they filch your stuff .

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[1Mac]

- Skill Focus: It's a sloppy patchwork fix. I want rogues to be able to excel at or at least nearly equal any other class at their most valued skills, like they could in 3E.... I'd definitely be open to something else, but I do want some mechanic to help the rogue ensure he can be top tier at at least some skills.

I'm more or less done with a big rogue rewrite of my own. Here's a rogue talent I came up with, based on UC talents like Wall Scrambler, which are actually fairly good.

Skill Savant (Ex): Pick one of the following skill checks: Acrobatics*, Bluff (when lying), Climb*, Diplomacy (to improve starting attitude), Disguise, Perception (when overhearing conversations or finding concealed or secret objects such as traps), Sense Motive, Swim*. You may roll twice and take the better result for that check, provided the first result isn’t an error. If she already rolls twice on this check because of another ability or effect, she gains a +2 insight bonus on both rolls instead. If the rogue is under the effect of a spell or ability that forces her to roll two dice and take the worst result, she only needs to roll 1d20 when making this check.
This talent may be taken multiple times, each time with a new skill.
*(except for evasive movement checks)

(PS "Evasive Movement" is a Trailblazer alternative to tumble checks. Basically the relevant skill check is made vs. your opponent's attack. Accept or ignore the implications of this rule at your choosing!)

Another choice would be to have bonuses for certain rogue class skills scale slowly as you gain rogue levels. Gets you where you want to go, but it slopes more gently and with less cheese.

 

[SteelDraco]

I'm more or less done with a big rogue rewrite of my own. Here's a rogue talent I came up with, based on UC talents like Wall Scrambler, which are actually fairly good.

I like this solution better - I was planning something similar based on the same source material, but costing cunning to activate it. I let the rogue pick any rogue class skill and didn't restrict based on the skill use, though, so they could move past foes with a good Acrobatics roll and feint with Bluff.

 

[Systole]

I like everything except for the extra skill focuses. You're giving the rogue an extra two feats per three levels -- it's too much. I understand they aren't combat feats, but this is way overpowered.

In 3.5 Iron Heroes, the rogue-equivalent could put 5+level points in a skill, rather than the usual 3+level. How about this for Pathfinder:

Skill savant (Ex): At third level, and every three levels thereafter, the maximum number of skill points a rogue may possess in any skill increases by one, over and above the normal progression due to character levels (i.e. s/he may have a maximum of 4 skill points in a skill at 3rd level, 8 at 6th level, etc.).
​

 

[SteelDraco]

I've found, from in game experience and examining the numbers, that other than Disable Device, rogues seem to be easily outshone by at least one other class at every other skill, usually by many other classes. Even something as intrinsic as stealth, archer ranger and monk do it as good or better bonus-wise, and bring other benefits to the table (ranger: spell buffs, favored terrain, and camo / HiPS; monk: ability to stealth mode at great speed).

My solution is to give rogues access to those abilities that alter the way the skill check works and give them more options with the skills, rather than just ramping up the numbers they can get. The "roll twice and take the better" mechanic is better to me because it reinforces the rogue being consistently the best at those skills in a way that I don't think a straight numbers bonus does.

For example, a rogue who wants to be sneaky can take Skill Adept (Stealth), the Vanish talent, and around 8th level Hide in Plain Sight. Bam, they're a master of disappearing when they want to. These would all be rogue talents, which would largely fill the purpose you're using Epic Skills for - giving rogues more than just a numerical bonus to skills, but modifying how those skills interact with other mechanics.

One of my goals is to fold at least some of the mechanics of the Assassin and Shadowdancer into the core class; I think shadow magic and stealthy murder are core enough concepts for a rogue that you shouldn't need to take a prestige class to dip your toe into it. I'm also considering a poison talent tree that lets them spend cunning to just go "this strike is poisoned and does extra stuff because of it." If alchemists can make bombs with a per-day mechanic I don't have much problem with rogues making poisons in a similar way, though I don't plan to use ability damage mechanics until later.

Clearly I like the rogue talents mechanic more than you do; I think the "choose your powers from a list" mechanic is my favorite thing in all of Pathfinder and I use it as much as I can mechanically.

- It is awkward to have 2 pools. However,
1) I don't think ninja gets enough ki points to support both functions currently. Especially after the nerfs from playtest to final version (some ki costs went up and originally most of the tricks gave you one free usage per day before they cost ki to use additional times). If there were a ki recharge mechanic like you suggested this may not be an issue.
2) I figured these were more powerful than anything you could spend a ki point on, even compared to most advanced ninja tricks. Maybe not, Invisible Blade and a few others ARE pretty good, and don't have the high skill rank requirements epic skills do...
Making it all work off of ki pool and giving a reliable recharge mechanic to get significantly more ki per day than currently allowed may be the best solution.

I think one pool would be better by far. I know I'd dislike having to track two different ones.

I think ki can do some reasonably powerful things, and at higher levels I don't see why it couldn't do some quite powerful things several steps into a feat tree. Heck, just giving a ninja in a position to sneak attack an extra attack at their highest bonus is likely to be a decent chunk of damage for their level.

I seem to recall you dislike the gunslinger (I'm not a fan of guns in D&D myself), but I like the grit mechanic and the idea of rewarding the character for doing things appropriate to their class. I'm still waffling on how they'd recharge their pool, though. So far I have just

• Drop a worthy opponent with a sneak attack
• Beat a worthy opponent on an opposed skill check by a significant margin

That might be all, though I'd consider adding more to complement a certain level of specialization in a talent tree (so the poison-focused rogue might have a talent later on that adds "You gain a point of cunning when an opponent fails a poison save by five or more").

I'm not sure yet on how to quantify "wins an opposed check by a significant margin". There can be a very large discrepancy between the skill check of a mid-to-high level rogue and someone untrained in whatever the skill to resist is. I feel like the margin should get larger as the rogue gains levels, but I'm not sure how the numbers should fall. My first thought was "5 or more below 10th level, 10 or more above 10th level", but it's possible to twink out skills to a degree that those are quite easy to do.

- Saves is the only thing I disagree completely with you on. Having a constant good base will save can represent luck just as well as having some ki point held in reserve and (in light of your other criticisms) is less complicated. I actually think high will suits a rogue well. Rogues have always been depicted as plucky and with a knack for wriggling out of mind affecting spells (Slippery Mind).

I see where you're coming from. I just don't agree with you. I'd rather have the rogue's mental slipperiness come from a talent that only some rogues have; it doesn't fit the base concept for me.