Rogue sneak attack rules question, now that it's 1/turn

[Sagiro]

Wait -- you want to maximize your out-of-turn attacks to get more SA damage, but you aren't using Riposte Strike? Heroic Effort is nice, but I'm not sure it's that good.

Well, so far, Heroic Effort has turned a miss into a hit in almost every combat I've been in since I took it. And since we have a large party (6 PC's four of whom are strikers), the number of times I hit something, and it hits me back at melee range on its following turn, is not overly large.

So, for the moment, I think I'll stick with Heroic Effort. Though you're right -- Riposte would be a good way of getting that extra SA damage, and I had swapped it out for Heroic Effort before I knew about the off-turn SA rule change.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Well, so far, Heroic Effort has turned a miss into a hit in almost every combat I've been in since I took it. And since we have a large party (6 PC's four of whom are strikers), the number of times I hit something, and it hits me back at melee range on its following turn, is not overly large.

So, for the moment, I think I'll stick with Heroic Effort. Though you're right -- Riposte would be a good way of getting that extra SA damage, and I had swapped it out for Heroic Effort before I knew about the off-turn SA rule change.

That makes sense. Party composition and tactics can turn a good choice into a bad one.

 

[Ryujin]

No, for a very simple reason: a turn starting is not an action and you ready an action to trigger based on another action. You also can't interrupt that action, but only react to it. An intelligent creature would, therefore, make his first action a move, thereby likely neutralizing Combat Advantage due to flanking.

 

[catsclaw227]

No, for a very simple reason: a turn starting is not an action and you ready an action to trigger based on another action. You also can't interrupt that action, but only react to it. An intelligent creature would, therefore, make his first action a move, thereby likely neutralizing Combat Advantage due to flanking.

What about this situation:

The player going after the rogue runs the party barbarian. the readied action is "attack after the barbarian moves". If the party barbarian moves into flanking, then the rogue fires off his readied standard action (and gets SA again), then the barbarian strikes.

 

[Ryujin]

What about this situation:

The player going after the rogue runs the party barbarian. the readied action is "attack after the barbarian moves". If the party barbarian moves into flanking, then the rogue fires off his readied standard action (and gets SA again), then the barbarian strikes.

By the rules it would work. It's not a likely situation though, since it implies that flanking didn't exist for the original minor attack. It defeats the purpose, for the OP, if he isn't getting flanking on both attacks.

To have this happen you would need for the Rogue to have flanking for the first attack, then shift out of flanking, then trigger an attack based on the Barbarian shifting to once again provide flanking.

If it takes that much to pull off, then is it really worth it? Multiple adjacent opponents would also make it less than likely to happen, in that way.

There are better ways to do more damage in combat, methinks, than having two characters be tied down playing "ring around the Solo."

 

[catsclaw227]

By the rules it would work. It's not a likely situation though, since it implies that flanking didn't exist for the original minor attack. It defeats the purpose, for the OP, if he isn't getting flanking on both attacks.

There are a LOT of ways to get SA outside of flanking, though.

 

[Ryujin]

There are a LOT of ways to get SA outside of flanking, though.

Of course there are, but some of them require hitting the opponent. He could be knocked prone, dazed, etc.. Flanking is still the most reliable way.

 

[catsclaw227]

I agree with your point.

I was simply pointing out how using a readied action to get an additional SA during a round can be done without resorting to readied-action-cheese.

 

[KidSnide]

So, there has been a (relatively) recent rules change, such that rogues can deal sneak attack damage once per turn. That means they can sneak attack on their own turn, and then sneak attack again if (for instance) a Warlord grants them a bonus attack on the Warlord's turn. A rogue can also get sneak attack damage on opportunity attacks, even if he dealt SA damage on his last turn.

But would the following be rules-legal?

1. On my turn, while I have CA against an enemy, I use Low Slash, which is a minor action. I hit, and deal sneak attack damage.

2. With my standard action, I use Ready, to use (for instance) Piercing Strike. My trigger is: "the next turn starts."

3. My turn ends.

4. The next character's turn starts, triggering my Readied action. I attack. Since it's someone else's turn, I get my sneak attack damage again.

I agree that this works RAW, but I wouldn't allow "the next turn starts" as a valid trigger. I think a readied action trigger has to be an in-game event that has something to do with the target or the action.

I would allow a trigger of "my target does anything" but since the readied action is an immediate reaction, a move by the target (or a slide by an ally) could mess up flanking. Plus, unless your target already goes right after you, you'd be allowing yourself to slide down in the initiative order. (Even if the target does go after you, a target with a good insight could perceive your readied action and hold his own action to your detriment.)

In short, I agree that readying an action should be a way of getting in another sneak attack (provided that you got your first one with a minor action attack or action point). But, I wouldn't allow a mechanics-only trigger that automatically started right after your turn.

-KS

 

[SteveC]

As someone who's played a rogue for a long time, I really enjoy the sneak attack 1/turn option. If you can get reliable combat advantage on your foes, may I humbly suggest the Duelist's Prowess and Lashing Blade powers. Both are great for out of turn attacks.

Lashing Blade is a standard action to activate, but it pairs nicely with Low Slash or another minor action attacks.