Rogues and the Alarm Spell

[Caliban]

Thank you for that inciteful rebuttal. So eloquent and to the point. I certainly felt swayed.

So great was the debating skill displayed by that one word that I'm sure I have no need to read the rest of your post.

I wasn't aware that the word "thank" held so much meaning. I'm impressed.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

I wasn't aware that the word "thank" held so much meaning. I'm impressed.

Ah, but the word "nonsense" certainly does, apparently.

I maintain that you can't cite someone else's post, edit out the very word that entirely rebuts your argument, and not expect it to be called nonsense. Frankly, it seems foolish to argue the point.

If that stings, well, it wasn't meant personally. Most of your stuff is quite cogent, and as I say I think you're correct on the substance of the rules, but that particular argument was just junk.

 

[Caliban]

Ah, but the word "nonsense" certainly does, apparently.

Actualy, yes it does. In my experience, when someone starts off a response to you like that, there is not much point in continuing the conversation. Since you chose to enter this discussion by talking down to me and lecturing me, I'm really not interested in anything else you might have said.

I was trying to have an honest debate, since I think there is a real difference between an alarm and a trap, even in the 3.5 rules. If you want to disagree and actually try to convince me otherwise, that's fine. But please do it without the attitude, because that just irritates me, and I'd really rather not get involved in a sniping match right now. I simply won't debate on those terms anymore.

 

[Tatsukun]

Well, how about is we go around it and try to figure out what the DC for a rogue to use 'Use Magic Device' to impersonate a creature small enough not to set off the spell is.

I think he has to be smaller that tiny to do it. I am thinking this is a major DC we are talking about.

If we say that it's a trap because something bad will happen if the rogue enters the protected area we open a major can of worms.

If there is building in a city with an ever-burning touch set in a wall (to illuminate the door) can a rogue deactivate the torch? Can he do it from the parameter of the light?

I am saying no.

-Tatsu

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

My Evil Wizards will command a zombie to pull a lever that evokes a Non-trap Anti Personel Device when it hears the sound of the Non-trap Alarm spell. Since the zombie is safely around the corner, he cannot be stopped by any normal means available to the Rogue.

Now I have a trap that is composed of elements that do not met the definition of a trap that is impervious to the Rogue class abilities that are specficially designed to deal with such things.

This is a loophole I can waltz a whale through.

 

[Caliban]

Well, how about is we go around it and try to figure out what the DC for a rogue to use 'Use Magic Device' to impersonate a creature small enough not to set off the spell is.

A spell is not a "device". Use Magic Device won't help you bypass a spell, it's only used to activate magic items or avoid harmful effects from magic items.

As for the rest, I pretty much agree. The more I look at it, the more I think that a spell isn't supposed to count as a magical trap unless the spell itself says it's a magical trap, or unless the spell is used as a component of a trap. And in the second case, the spell isn't really being "disabled", it's just being rendered useless due to the rest of the trap not functioning.

 

[Caliban]

My Evil Wizards will command a zombie to pull a lever that evokes a Non-trap Anti Personel Device when it hears the sound of the Non-trap Alarm spell. Since the zombie is safely around the corner, he cannot be stopped by any normal means available to the Rogue.

Now I have a trap that is composed of elements that do not met the definition of a trap that is impervious to the Rogue class abilities that are specficially designed to deal with such things.

This is a loophole I can waltz a whale through.

Rogue abilities are not automatically useful in every situation, no more than a clerics ability to turn undead is useful against every type of undead, or a fighters sword is useful against every type of creature they face.

It is certainly possible to set up situations that require more than a couple of skill checks to bypass. Sometimes you will need spells such as Detect Magic to detect the alarm, Dispel Magic to dispel the Alarm, and a cleric to Turn Undead and destroy the zombie before it can trigger the trap.

Or you could have someone who is invisible wait until they see the party coming, and trigger an effect that hits them before the rogue has a chance to search for it. Or a 1st level drow sorcerer with 120' darkvision and a wand of fireballs in a pitchblack cavern, etc.

So I don't think objecting to it on the basis that it's somehow unbalanced is accurate.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

So I don't think objecting to it on the basis that it's somehow unbalanced is accurate.

You are ducking the issue.

My objection is it is not difficult to build Non-trap Traps whose constituents parts are all unambiguously non-traps by your definitions.

I have never asked that Rogue abilities be useful in all situations. That argument is a complete red herring.

Look at my example again. It walks like a trap. It talks like a trap. If it is not a trap, something is wrong with the definitions you are using.

 

[Caliban]

You are ducking the issue.

My objection is it is not difficult to build Non-trap Traps whose constituents parts are all unambiguously non-traps by your definitions.

I think you are overstating the case just a tad.

Look at my example again. It walks like a trap. It talks like a trap. If it is not a trap, something is wrong with the definitions you are using.

No it's not a trap. It hinges on something that is specifically not a trap: A guard creature of some sort waiting to respond to an alarm. Sounds like a standard D&D encounter to me. There are multiple ways of disabling or avoiding the alarm, the disable device skill just isn't one of them in this instance, since there is no device or magical writings to disable.

The alarm spell only reveals the presence of the characters. Nothing else. It doesn't catch them, impede their progress, or cause them any damage. Whoever or whatever responds to the alarm does that.

If the zombie is going to react to the alarm, then at that point it's a combat situation and you roll initiative.

If the zombie triggers some mythical "non trap anti-personel device" that you never defined, then that's your problem. That's a straw man arguement on your part, since I haven't been talking about anything like that. That's not me ducking the issue, that you trying to turn it into something else.

I've just been talking about the alarm spell, and about the difference between an alarm and a trap. One alerts people to your presence, the other does something to you when you trigger it.

 

[dcollins]

I agree that alarm seems like it should count as a trap.