Rogues and the Alarm Spell

[Amal Shukup]

I'm very much of the "walks like a duck..." school of thought here. Moreover the rules seem fairly clear on the mechanics associated with treating Spells that act like Traps.

From the SRD: Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps. Creating a spell trap requires the services of a character who can cast the needed spell or spells, who is usually either the character creating the trap or an NPC spellcaster hired for the purpose.

Quack.

Note that it doesn't refer to a 'Spell with the Trap Descriptor'' (no such exists) - it is tied completely to function. So if an Alarm spell has been set to catch somebody sneaking into the protected area, then it is functioning as a trap.

Also:

From the SRD:
MAGIC TRAPS
Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps. Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true.

* A successful Search check (DC 25 + spell level) made by a rogue (and only a rogue) detects a magic trap before it goes off. Other characters have no chance to find a magic trap with a Search check.
* Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level x 1.5).
* Magic traps may be disarmed by a rogue (and only a rogue) with a successful Disable Device check (DC 25 + spell level).

If the Alarm spell is to be considered excluded from the above mechanics, the Alarm description needs to explicitly indicate that it is excluded - as opposed to the suggestion that it needs to explicitly identify itself as being a trap. The 'burden of proof', as it were, is on the Spell indicating that it does not follow those rules...

Programmed Image could conceivably function quite similarly; in which case (as nothing in the spell description states otherwise) I'd suggest that the same mechanics would apply there as well.

No?

A'Mal

 

[Caliban]

I'm very much of the "walks like a duck..." school of thought here. Moreover the rules seem fairly clear on the mechanics associated with treating Spells that act like Traps.


Quack.

But an alarm spell doesn't function as a trap. That's the whole point. People keep saying that it does, I point out all they ways that it doesn't, and no one actually refutes that.

Please, explain how an alarm spell acts a trap. It doesn't meet the definition of a trap. Unlike every single trap spell listed in the PHB, it has no physical component.

No Runes.
No Glyphs.
No Symbols.
No physical component whatsoever.

Every single magical trap spell in the PHB has some physical component listed that is there for the duration of the spell. I don't think this is a coincidence.

Note that it doesn't refer to a 'Spell with the Trap Descriptor'' (no such exists) - it is tied completely to function. So if an Alarm spell has been set to catch somebody sneaking into the protected area, then it is functioning as a trap.

Alarm spells don't "catch" anything. They can be part of a trap that catches someone, but the spell itself doesn't do that.

No quack.

If the Alarm spell is to be considered excluded from the above mechanics, the Alarm description needs to explicitly indicate that it is excluded - as opposed to the suggestion that it needs to explicitly identify itself as being a trap. The 'burden of proof', as it were, is on the Spell indicating that it does not follow those rules...

I disagree. Every spell trap in the PHB specifically mentions that it's a spell trap, giving a search and disable DC.

If alarm is a trap, why don't didn't they mention that? It's not like it has multiple functions built into the spell.

An alarm can be part of a trap, but when you look at the rules, the spell itself isn't a spell trap.

Programmed Image could conceivably function quite similarly; in which case (as nothing in the spell description states otherwise) I'd suggest that the same mechanics would apply there as well.

No?

A'Mal

No. If the Alarm spell was intended to be a spell trap, it would be mentioned as such, just like all the other spell traps.

Your basically saying that every spell that has a "trigger condition" is a magical trap that can be disabled. So a rogue can disable a contingency spell on a wizard? A rogue can disable a magic mouth spell?

If so, why doesn't it mention anything about this in their spell descriptions, like it does for every glyph, symbol, rune, or even teleport circle?

 

[jgbrowning]

But an alarm spell doesn't function as a trap. That's the whole point. People keep saying that it does, I point out all they ways that it doesn't, and no one actually refutes that.

Is a string with bells surrounding a specific area a trap? I think almost everyone would say, yes, that's a trap because any contrivance that alerts you to the presence of a enemy is a trap for that unseen enemy.

Please, explain how an alarm spell acts a trap. It doesn't meet the definition of a trap. Unlike every single trap spell listed in the PHB, it has no physical component.

It acts like a magical string of bells. It does meet the definition of trap. The problem your having is that it doesn't match the other types of spell traps listed in the PHB. That's a separate issue. I'm more inclined to believe that the Note: Magic traps such as... text was excluded by error than to believe that alarm isn't a spell trap because alarm is the magical poster child for a large range of mundane detection/location traps.

A trip wire with a smoke grenade or flare.
A wire with bells.
A piece of hair placed carefully in a door to indicate if someone's entered your room while you've been away.

All of these things are traps. Traps that rogues have the ability to notice and disarm. All alarm is, is a magical version of these detection/location traps.

Alarm spells don't "catch" anything. They can be part of a trap that catches someone, but the spell itself doesn't do that.

As I've stated above, catching isn't a required componant of a trap. The DMG lists permanent images used to confuse as a trap. So there can be magic traps that don't fit the catching criteria according to the DMG.

I disagree. Every spell trap in the PHB specifically mentions that it's a spell trap, giving a search and disable DC.

I think only every spell trap that does "damage" to the trap tripper lists a search and disable DC (damage being a state of change in the tripper, be that phyical hurt or change of location). There is no search and disable DC listed for the DMGs example of permanant images yet it's listed as a trap. Just because alarm doesn't explictly state its a trap doesn't mean it can't be one.

My guess is that the designers were blind-sided by this one because the only way that alarm can be used is like a detection/location trap. It really has no other uses. It's so obvious, they probably missed the "Note: Magical traps..." text.

joe b.

 

[Caliban]

Is a string with bells surrounding a specific area a trap? I think almost everyone would say, yes, that's a trap because any contrivance that alerts you to the presence of a enemy is a trap for that unseen enemy.

No, that's not a trap. That's an alarm. There is a difference, as I've pointed out repeatedly.

An alarm alerts you to the presence of an intruder.

A trap impedes (trapping them in a pit or cage, etc.), or harms (blows up, poisons them, fills the room with water, etc.).

A trap can have an alarm incorporated into it (so that it both alerts you to the intruders presence and does something to them), but an alarm can also be something seperate, with no trap associated with it.

Please read my previous posts, because I'm getting really tired of repeating myself.

 

[jgbrowning]

No, that's not a trap. That's an alarm. There is a difference, as I've pointed out repeatedly.

If it's the word "trap" you're hung up on lets just get rid of it and use "alarm." Rogues cannot disable alarms? A rogue can't disable the above detection/information traps/alarms I mentioned? I think rogues can disable mundane alarms and they can also disable magic alarms just like they can disable magic traps.

An alarm alerts you to the presence of an intruder.

A trap impedes (trapping them in a pit or cage, etc.), or harms (blows up, poisons them, fills the room with water, etc.).

A trap can have an alarm incorporated into it (so that it both alerts you to the intruders presence and does something to them), but an alarm can also be something seperate, with no trap associated with it.

Please read my previous posts, because I'm getting really tired of repeating myself.

Trap means more that just what you're saying, however. It also means a stratagem for catching or tricking an unwary person. And to follow that thought some more, catching just doesn't mean holding/restraining, it also means to discover or come upon suddenly, unexpectedly, or accidentally.

Ala, my alarm caught some thieves breaking into my house. The alarm is a trap to catch thieves, not to harm them or restrain them, but to simply prevent their success because their presence is now known. One could say that an alarm impedes their actions because they know the consequences of triggering it and once triggered they know that something that's more directly impeding is probably about to happen.

When someone discovers sets of tripwires along a path that trigger flares they more than likely say something like:

Person A: "Be careful! The path's trapped."
Person B: "With what?"
Person A: "Just some alarms, nothing dangerous, but we'll be better off if they don't know we're here."

Alarms are traps just like a bucket of water on top of a partially opened door, just like a whoopie cushion in a chair. Just like people set traps to see if someone's performing a particular action. "I wanted to see if he was stealing from me so I laid a trap for him. The keys to the registar are out in the open and I have this camera recording what happens." There is no damage done by the trap directly, but there are consequences that can be avoided by disabling the trap/alarm. And a rogue could disarm this trap by searching to see the camera and finding a way to disable it.

Summon monster magic devices are considered traps (but they don't impede or harm) that can be disabled, but you seem to be arguing that the magical alarm that summons help mundanely can't be disabled. The alarm spell that triggers a roof to open up and drop an ooze onto someone can be disabled, but the alarm spell that just wakes the ooze up can't be disabled.

To me, it simply makes no sense. Regardless of what the "trigger/alarm" triggers/alerts, it's a trap, be it mundane, or magical. Alarms are a type of trap that (when triggered) cause non-mechanical/non-magical effects (and impede indirectly) while most traps (when triggered) cause a mechanical/magical effect (and impede directly).

A main problem I see with treating alarm as not being able to be disabled is the following situation. If I create a trap that releases a toxic gas throughout my entire dungeon if a particular sound (that of an alarm spell) goes off, the rogue can disarm the alarm because it's used as a trigger for my toxic gas trap, but the rogue cannot disable the alarm when I flip a lever to turn off my toxic gas trap. I'm not buying this because there's no difference between the sound made when there isn't a trapped response to the bell and when there is a trapped response.

In other words, the spell doesn't "know" that it's going to trigger a trap with it's bell sound and the rogue has no way of knowing the difference between a trigger alarm spell and a non-trigger alarm spell.

If the rogue can disable alarm as a spell trigger, a rogue can disable alarm when it's not a spell trigger. I'm not a big believer in the schrodinger's alarm theory: to me, an alarm is not dependent upon what it alarms to determine if it can or cannot be disarmed. I find it odd to think that a rogue can disable magical and non-magical traps, and non-magical alarms (ala wire with bells), but somehow can't disable magical alarms.

Just seems like a symantic arguement to me. I don't think rogues should be able to disarm any magic, but if they can, I think they can surely disarm alarms as well as traps. Because to me, an alarm is just a specific type of trap, like pit, arrow, water, acid.. etc.

joe b.

 

[Thanee]

Well, Caliban is of course right, that the Alarm spell is no trap within the rules, all trap spells are specifically declared as such.

Question is... should it be a trap?

I think yes, since it works just like a trap does. In a very simple sense. It has a trigger and it does something, which is usually bad for you. Detection is something I consider pretty bad for a rogue.

And even if the rogue would be able to disarm an Alarm spell... it's still hard enough to actually find out there is one, unless you are searching every square, or are detecting magic.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Amal Shukup]

Alarm is not a Trap?

I find that position VERY unconvincing. Almost completely impossible to refute that statement on its merits because it hinges on a very subjective - and to my mind, extremely unconventional and narrow - definition of traps. However, to paraphrase the points I made earlier:

1. Spells can function as traps. The important thing here is their function. Spells do not need to be specially identified as a trap spell, they must simply function as one.

2. If they so function, then a Rogue can detect/disarm them using the mechanics provided...

3. UNLESS the Spell Description explicitly says otherwise. Alarm's Spell Description does not so explicate. Ergo, when used to thwart the activities of the sneaky, it is a trap and can be detected and disarmed.
​

There has been some debate on this point, arguing that nothing in the Alarm spell's descriptor specifically indicates that it is a trap. As I described in some detail several posts ago - with a citation from the SRD - this is in NO WAY relevant. To be excluded from the mechanics for discovering/disarming traps the spell descriptor must so indicate. That's the Black Letter/RAW. Any other interpretation is a House Rule. Imagined requirements for 'physical components' and such notwithstanding. (Permanent Image is identified as a potential spell trap on page 67 of the DMG, and it offers neither a 'physical component' to disable, nor anything in its description to identify itself as some exclusive class of 'trap spell'.)

Moving on...

The ONLY counterargument with substance is the assertion that the Alarm spell does not function as a trap. If the function of the Alarm spell were not a 'trap', none of the above would apply because the Rogue's ability to discover/disarm spell traps is predicated on the spell's functioning as a trap.

To my mind Alarm obviously DOES function as a trap, and a number of posters seem to agree - JGBrowning has made a number of cogent arguments on this point.

I will not continue the subjective argument (edit: okay, upon reflection, it appears I am, in fact, continuing this subjective argument ), but will provide this quote for your consideration as to a trap's function:

From Traps and Treachery by FFG: "In the context of a campaign world, traps function as security - they're designed to protect people, places, or things."

- Emphasis mine.

No, FFG is not a core source, but I think their functional definition is a good one for the purposes of gaming.

I will also point out that Rogues are not required to take Ranks in Disable Alarm or Disable Annoyance. Disable Device is intended to cover a wide - in fact, 'inclusive' - range of applications. In the case of Rogues, that ability has been specifically extended to apply to Magical and Spell traps. I feel that arbitrarily granting a 1st level spell with the ability to thwart an entire Class' core function based on a very narrow definition of the word 'trap' is a disservice to your players and flies in the face of the preponderance of evidence.

All of that said, If a DM feels that a spell is not functioning as a trap, then it is certainly within their purview to disregard the provided mechanics. It is not my place to try and dislodge a subjective opinion - just presenting mine, and interpretations of the rules as I think they're written.

However, I think that the 'Alarm is not a trap' position is sufficiently counterintuitive that players should be informed of it: Rogues in a world that can so easily thwart them would likely be aware of the Alarm spell, and should be given the opportunity (through cross-classing or UMD/wands etc) to prepare for the situation.

A'mal

 

[Caliban]

If it's the word "trap" you're hung up on lets just get rid of it and use "alarm." Rogues cannot disable alarms? A rogue can't disable the above detection/information traps/alarms I mentioned? I think rogues can disable mundane alarms and they can also disable magic alarms just like they can disable magic traps.

Rogues have the ability to disable spell traps. Where does it say that they can disable spell alarms?

And of course a rogue can disable a mundane alarm, because there is a physical device to disable. That's what the disable device skill is for. However, there is nothing to disable with the Alarm spell. Nothing.

Every spell trap in the book has a physical component that the rogue can disable (rune, glyph, symbol, etc). The Alarm spell does not.

Trap means more that just what you're saying, however. It also means a stratagem for catching or tricking an unwary person. And to follow that thought some more, catching just doesn't mean holding/restraining, it also means to discover or come upon suddenly, unexpectedly, or accidentally.

A physical trap catches someone in the physical sense. The second definition for "catching" you refer to wouldn't apply to a traps. Traps aren't intelligent, they can't "discover or come upon" anything. "To discover or come upon suddenly" is referring to a person doing the discovering.

An alarm reveals their presense, it doesn't "discover or come upon" them. Two very different things.

Edited to clarify my thoughts.

 

[Tatsukun]

So let’s say an NPC has a magic shop. He has a good door, but he’s worried about someone picking the lock. He gets a smith to build a needle trap into it. (1). Then, he sets an ever-burning torch above the door so nobody can linger there without being seen by the city guards who pass buy frequently (as in, there is no cover for hiding). The guards have been told that if the light is ever off, they should assume someone has broken in. (2)

So, number one is clearly a trap. Is your argument that number two is a trap also? Should the rogue be able to use his disable device to get past the torch? Does he somehow create darkness is he can hide? Does he use his skill to turn invisible? Can he do it from the parameter of the light? 20’ away? 40’ ??

It’s starting to sound like you think anything that has a consequence is a trap.

Let’s say there is an iron golem in an alcove of a hallway. He has been told to always stare at the hallway in front of him. If you walk by the alcove, it will get a chance to see (and kill) you.

Is that too a trap? Can a rogue bypass this with his disable device skill? It’s starting to sound like the skill should be ‘bypass any dangerous situation caused by location whatsoever’.

Silly

-Tatsu

 

[Scion]

Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Although it has been stated before.

SRD:
Types of Traps: A trap can be either mechanical or magic in nature. Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps. Creating a spell trap requires the services of a character who can cast the needed spell or spells, who is usually either the character creating the trap or an NPC spellcaster hired for the purpose.

Is alarm a spell that can function as a trap? yep.

SRD:
Trigger
A trap’s trigger determines how it is sprung.
Proximity: This trigger activates the trap when a creature approaches within a certain distance of it. A proximity trigger differs from a location trigger in that the creature need not be standing in a particular square. Creatures that are flying can spring a trap with a proximity trigger but not one with a location trigger.

Does it trigger when you get within a certain distance? yep.

SRD:
Damage/Effect
The effect of a trap is what happens to those who spring it. Usually this takes the form of either damage or a spell effect, but some traps have special effects.
Spell Traps: Spell traps produce the spell’s effect. Like all spells, a spell trap that allows a saving throw has a save DC of 10 + spell level + caster’s relevant ability modifier.

Does the spell have an effect when triggered? yep, it alerts someone. That is the trap.

SRD:
Spell Trap Cost
A spell trap has a cost only if the builder must hire an NPC spellcaster to cast it.

Just for completeness, we all know alarm can be cast.


Really though, I dont see how anyone can say it 'isnt' a magical trap. It is magical, it triggers when its conditions are met, and it has some effect. It doesnt matter 'what' that effect is, the main part of a trap is its triggering component.

There is no difference what-so-ever if the alarm spell triggers and wakes the party, triggers and points large shiny lasers at the person who triggered it and fired, or if it triggers and does nothing at all. It is still a trap.