Rogues and the Alarm Spell

[Caliban]

A main problem I see with treating alarm as not being able to be disabled is the following situation. If I create a trap that releases a toxic gas throughout my entire dungeon if a particular sound (that of an alarm spell) goes off, the rogue can disarm the alarm because it's used as a trigger for my toxic gas trap, but the rogue cannot disable the alarm when I flip a lever to turn off my toxic gas trap. I'm not buying this because there's no difference between the sound made when there isn't a trapped response to the bell and when there is a trapped response.

I would argue that in either case the rogue cannot actually disable the alarm spell. Even when it's incorporated into a trap, the rogue doesn't actually disarm the alarm. He just prevents the trap from responding to the alarm.

Since the DMG states that the alarm is limited to covering the area of the trap, it seems to be intended that there has to be a trap mechanism (magical or mundane) that responds to the alarm that the rogue can reach.

But at that point we are heavily into the abstract nature of the 3.5 rules, and it's basically coming up with rationalizations to support what the rules actually do say clearly (a rogue can disarm traps and an alarm spell can be a component of a trap).

 

[Caliban]

Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Although it has been stated before.

SRD:
Types of Traps: A trap can be either mechanical or magic in nature. Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps. Creating a spell trap requires the services of a character who can cast the needed spell or spells, who is usually either the character creating the trap or an NPC spellcaster hired for the purpose.

Is alarm a spell that can function as a trap? yep.

Nope. As I've pointed out several times.

SRD:
Trigger
A trap’s trigger determines how it is sprung.
Proximity: This trigger activates the trap when a creature approaches within a certain distance of it. A proximity trigger differs from a location trigger in that the creature need not be standing in a particular square. Creatures that are flying can spring a trap with a proximity trigger but not one with a location trigger.

Does it trigger when you get within a certain distance? yep.

That doesn't make it a trap. Is magic mouth a trap? Is the Contingency spell a trap?

SRD:
Damage/Effect
The effect of a trap is what happens to those who spring it. Usually this takes the form of either damage or a spell effect, but some traps have special effects.
Spell Traps: Spell traps produce the spell’s effect. Like all spells, a spell trap that allows a saving throw has a save DC of 10 + spell level + caster’s relevant ability modifier.

Does the spell have an effect when triggered? yep, it alerts someone. That is the trap.

Nope, that's not a trap. That's an alarm.

SRD:
Spell Trap Cost
A spell trap has a cost only if the builder must hire an NPC spellcaster to cast it.

Just for completeness, we all know alarm can be cast.


Really though, I dont see how anyone can say it 'isnt' a magical trap. It is magical, it triggers when its conditions are met, and it has some effect. It doesnt matter 'what' that effect is, the main part of a trap is its triggering component.

Then you haven't actually been reading the thread. You are just restating the original arguement without actually refuting anything I've said.

There is no difference what-so-ever if the alarm spell triggers and wakes the party, triggers and points large shiny lasers at the person who triggered it and fired, or if it triggers and does nothing at all. It is still a trap.

No, there is a huge difference. But it looks like we are just repeating ourselves. If you have anything new I'll discuss it with you, but it looks like we have reached an impasse.

 

[Scion]

Nope. As I've pointed out several times.

And to use the same unfortunate tone, as has been pointed out to you several times, you are wrong.

I have read all of your posts, I simply dont agree. Your points are not convincing, and you cannot refute the fact that there is no difference between an alarm going off to point lasers at someone and the same alarm going off to simply make a really loud noise. Both are traps.

That doesn't make it a trap. Is magic mouth a trap? Is the Contingency spell a trap?

When used as a trap? sure.

SRD:
Magic Mouth
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature or object
Duration: Permanent until discharged
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
This spell imbues the chosen object or creature with an enchanted mouth that suddenly appears and speaks its message the next time a specified event occurs. The message, which must be twenty-five or fewer words long, can be in any language known by you and can be delivered over a period of 10 minutes. The mouth cannot utter verbal components, use command words, or activate magical effects. It does, however, move according to the words articulated; if it were placed upon a statue, the mouth of the statue would move and appear to speak. Of course, magic mouth can be placed upon a tree, rock, or any other object or creature.
The spell functions when specific conditions are fulfilled according to your command as set in the spell. Commands can be as general or as detailed as desired, although only visual and audible triggers can be used. Triggers react to what appears to be the case. Disguises and illusions can fool them. Normal darkness does not defeat a visual trigger, but magical darkness or invisibility does. Silent movement or magical silence defeats audible triggers. Audible triggers can be keyed to general types of noises or to a specific noise or spoken word. Actions can serve as triggers if they are visible or audible. A magic mouth cannot distinguish alignment, level, Hit Dice, or class except by external garb.
The range limit of a trigger is 15 feet per caster level, so a 6th-level caster can command a magic mouth to respond to triggers as far as 90 feet away. Regardless of range, the mouth can respond only to visible or audible triggers and actions in line of sight or within hearing distance.
Magic mouth can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
Material Component: A small bit of honeycomb and jade dust worth 10 gp.


This spell talks all about triggers and such. If you walk past the statue, and it starts shouting, 'intruders!! intruders!! intruders!!' I bet people will feel that they walked into a trap. This is because they just sprung a trap.

You seem to feel that it would only be a trap if the statue then fell on them. I dont see the distinction, because there isnt one.

It doesnt matter if the trap triggers a sound, a laser, or does nothing at all. It is still a trap.

 

[Caliban]

And to use the same unfortunate tone, as has been pointed out to you several times, you are wrong.

I have read all of your posts, I simply dont agree. Your points are not convincing, and you cannot refute the fact that there is no difference between an alarm going off to point lasers at someone and the same alarm going off to simply make a really loud noise. Both are traps.

*shrug* I can and have refuted it. An alarm is not a trap. I haven't found any of your arguments to the contrary to be convincing.

Since we are at the point of "Yes it is! No it isn't!" it looks like we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Caliban]

I'll repeat my arguements one last time in a seperate post, to try and restate them clearly:

I agree that an alarm spell is very similar to a spell trap. However I feel that it is different in three very important ways:

1) It doesn't actually act upon the person who triggers it in any way
2) There is no physical component to disable
3) The alarm spell does not state it's a spell trap.

The first point means that it doesn't meet the definition of a trap (see all my posts regarding the difference between an alarm and a trap), the second point is important because every spell the book says you can disable does have a physical component, and the third point means that the designers most likely did not intend for it to be disabled using the disable device skill.

 

[Scion]

I agree that an alarm spell is very similar to a spell trap. However I feel that it different in three very important ways:

Very similar, since it 'is' the triggering component as you have said. The actual final effect is unimportant however, the trigger makes the trap.

1) It doesn't actually act upon the person who triggers it in any way

Unimportant. If you are invisible so that a seeing eye trap cannot detect you and fry you does that make the trap not a trap any longer?

If it summons/gates the Monster Of Doom (tm) to come and destroy you does that make it not a trap?

What if you take damage from loud sounds? The alarm spell can make a loud sound, it damages you, it acted upon you.

2) There is no physical component to disable

Also unimportant, having a physical component is not required for it to be a trap.

I will quote from the srd:
Spike growth and spike stones, however, create magic traps against which Disable Device checks do not succeed. See the individual spell descriptions for details.

3) The alarm spell does not state it's a spell trap.

Also unimportant, it could very well be that it simply cannot be disarmed, but it is still a trap.

I dont care if it can be disarmed or not, it is still a trap.

The core books dont say that every sappling tree can be made into a trap either, but we all know it is true.

If a spell is set up in such a way as to be a trap, then it is a trap.

If someone could cast a delayed fireball that lasted for 24 hours, during which time anyone who approached within distance X triggered it then for those 24 hours it is a trap.

Easy, simple, and not counterintuitive like 'it is a trap if this switch is up and not a trap if this switch is down.. even though the trigger is exactly the same either way'

 

[Caliban]

Very similar, since it 'is' the triggering component as you have said. The actual final effect is unimportant however, the trigger makes the trap.

That statement I find very unlikely. Any actual support for it?

I have shown a lot of support for the difference between an alarm and a trap. You haven't actually shown anything to the contrary. You just keep repeating that it is a trap over and over again.

If we use your interpretation, any trap that incorporates an Alarm spell can't have a Search or Disable Device DC greater than 26, since Alarm is a 1st level spell.

I find it highly unlikely that this was intended by the designers, and it doesn't seem to actually be supported in the rules.

Like I said, if you come up with anything new let me know.

 

[Scion]

That statement I find very unlikely. Any actual support for it?

Care to disprove it? All traps have triggers and some sort of effect. The alarm spell has a trigger and some sort of effect.

It is a trap.

I have shown a lot of support for the difference between an alarm and a trap. You haven't actually shown anything to the contrary. You just keep repeating that it is a trap over and over again.

I, and others, have quoted out of the SRD showing how you are wrong. You have proven nothing and just keep repeating yourself.

At this point everyone just keeps repeating yourself. You say, 'but it isnt a trap because it doesnt deal physical damage' and others 'of course it is a trap, it triggers and has an effect, it also works just like other traps given in the dmg'.

I think I will go with the version that is supported directly by the raw, I am unsure where your line of reasoning is coming from, but it certainly doesnt appear to be supported by the raw.

If we use your interpretation, any trap that incorporates an Alarm spell can't have a Search or Disable Device DC greater than 26, since Alarm is a 1st level spell.

Completely false. Other traps can have triggers that are based on something like the alarm spell, but the alarm spell always has a certain dc. Of course, someone could heighten the alarm spell making it harder as appropriate.

Just because a trap includes fire it does not mean that all traps with fire have the same dc. Just because a trap has a trip wire doesnt mean that all traps with a trip wire have the same dc.

You are really reaching here caliban The alarm spell is first level, so when used as a trap it has certain conditions yes. But, if it is heightened, or some other trap uses a version much like alarm, it can still have a different dc.

I find it highly unlikely that this was intended by the designers, and it doesn't seem to actually be supported in the rules.

Except from all of the quotes posted by myself and others in this thread directly from the raw.

Like I said, if you come up with anything new let me know.

Hey, sure, and if you come up with something go ahead and post it. You have already listed your three main criteria, I have already countered them. Anything else?

 

[Thanee]

2) There is no physical component to disable

Is there one for every listed trap spell?

Glyph of Warding has the inscription.

What other spells are there (PHB only), which are declared as magical traps?

Bye
Thanee

 

[jgbrowning]

I'll repeat my arguements one last time in a seperate post, to try and restate them clearly:

I agree that an alarm spell is very similar to a spell trap. However I feel that it is different in three very important ways:

1) It doesn't actually act upon the person who triggers it in any way

True, the bell effect (be it audible or inaudible) does no damage to the triggerer. But that's the same as a holy water trap would do no damage to any non-undead/non-evilish type creature or a fireball trap does no damage to one immune to fire, or an arrow trap does not damage to a creature immune to piercing weapons. Yet holy water, fireball, and arrow traps are most definitely traps.

2) There is no physical component to disable

A disableable component is not required to disable a magical trap. Ala permanent images ala fire trap.

3) The alarm spell does not state it's a spell trap.

Neither does permanant images although the DMG explictly states it can be used as a trap. Hell, the DMG explictly states that it can be used as a trap that confuses. Which also doesn't fit your definition of trap having to cause direct harm. Sepia snake sigil also isn't stated to be a spell trap but it's listed as a CR 4 trap in the DMG.

This is why I think the DMG lists how to deal with spell traps, because not all spell traps will have the spell trap discription in their text.

The first point means that it doesn't meet the definition of a trap (see all my posts regarding the difference between an alarm and a trap), the second point is important because every spell the book says you can disable does have a physical component, and the third point means that the designers most likely did not intend for it to be disabled using the disable device skill.

Points rebutted, and to restate.

1. A fireball trap does no damage to a creature immune to fire, yet is most definitely a trap per the DMG. Traps are not required to harm to be traps. Traps are not even required to be able to potentially harm in order to be a trap. Sepia snake sigil does no harm. Or, at least no more harm than what an alarm does. :\
2. A permanent images) trap per the DMG has no stated physical component to disable. A Fire Trap per the PHB has no stated physical component to disable.

And as a point of interest, a firetrap is described as a ward. Alarm is described as a ward as well.

3. The permanent image spell does not state it is a spell trap. sepia snake sigil is listed as a CR 4 trap in the DMG yet it also isn't stated to be a spell trap in its discription.

joe b.