Rogues and Two Weapon Fighting

[AZRogue]

I've heard now, in several places, that the Ranger is the only Class to get a Two Weapon Fighting ability, as in a at-will Power that allows an attack with two weapons, not the supposed feats which add to AC (though I LIKE those feats). Is this truly the case?

Let me first say that I'm very, very pleased with how 4E is shaping up but I'm disappointed in the Ranger becoming the only real two weapon fighter in the game. I know it's due to that popular Drow, even though the bastard had two weapon fighting originally because he was a DROW--and that was their thing--and not because he was a freaking Ranger, but I'm sorry to see everyone who wishes to fight with two weapons be forced to become Drizzt clones to do so.

Does multiclassing allow for a Rogue to dip enough into the Ranger class to get TWF? If so, how deep does he have to go?

The reason I ask is that I want to play a Rogue and was happy to see that a dagger wielding Rogue could be viable and not a party gimp--but it seems to me that a dagger Rogue just seems to really fit the idea of a nimble, lightly armored striker with two small light weapons in his hands. He doesn't use a shield. Wouldn't a Rogue, especially the new Rogue, have been able to benefit from TWF?

Any chance that we'll see this as an option in the Martial book?

 

[Plane Sailing]

One thing to bear in mind is that sneak attack damage is gained per round (IIRC) rather than per attack, so rogues don't gain the huge mechanical bonuses from TWF that they do in 3e.

As I understand it a Rogue could have the TWF feat and enjoy fighting with two daggers and getting +1 on his damage for doing so (rather than two extra attacks). He could then do some Ranger multiclassing and pick up a few neat powers (but I won't be able to give any more concrete advice for another couple of weeks )

 

[nittanytbone]

You can only sneak attack once per round. So even if you could make two attacks, it wouldn't help much.

Basically, the only benefit of wielding two weapons is that you can use two different magic weapons. So you can have your Dagger of Radiant Undead P0wnage in your left hand for slashing zombies and your Dagger of Fiery Doom for cutting up hobgoblins.

However, with multiclassing, if you REALLY want to get that extra attack, you can start as a ranger then pick up some rogue skills. That'd likely be the best way to go about doing it. Otherwise you'd have to wait until level 11 to dual-wield every round "at will."

 

[Saben]

Well a Rogue who took Ranger instead of 11th level could get a total of 1 At-Will 2WF power, 2 encounter TWF powers and 2 daily TWF powers.

That means half of your powers would involve the use of 2 weapons- the rest of the time the weapon in your offhand would just be decorative.

Also you'd be giving up your paragon path... There isn't a lot of incentive for that extra weapon- but there's no disadvantage either.

IMO you'd be better off dipping your toe into Rogue as a Ranger. And just call yourself a Rogue. Mechanics and storyline don't have to match up.

 

[dervish]

It's not a bad idea to obtain the twin strike power as a rogue, either through paragon multiclassing or picking it as the extra power if you're a half-elf. While you can only apply sneak attack once per round, making two attacks would certainly increase the odds of one hitting.

Also, all rogues should consider the two-weapon fighting feat. You most likely have the dex for it so it's basically an extra point of damage for the main hand, and you should already be wielding a dagger in the off-hand for ranged sneak attack opportunities.

 

[Edwin_Su]

the 2 2 weapon feats in the heroic tier are :

Do not cut and paste from illegal PDFs - Plane Sailing

 

[Blue]

I'm somewhat disappointed about the news about TWF as well. Primarily for converting existing characters. For example, I've got a swashbuckling paladin who uses either a rapier and dagger or two rapiers depending on the foe. And will need the multiclassing feat to go a different direction then ranger.

Another post mention that I can wield two weapon, but only make attacks with one per round. Considering how a round is "shorter" (more of them happen in the same amount of RL time & opponents) I can live with that.

Since I'm only attacking with one at a time, do I need to spend feats to wield both rapiers?

Cheers,
=Blue(23)

 

[DanChops]

I'm somewhat disappointed about the news about TWF as well. Primarily for converting existing characters. For example, I've got a swashbuckling paladin who uses either a rapier and dagger or two rapiers depending on the foe. And will need the multiclassing feat to go a different direction then ranger.

Another post mention that I can wield two weapon, but only make attacks with one per round. Considering how a round is "shorter" (more of them happen in the same amount of RL time & opponents) I can live with that.

Since I'm only attacking with one at a time, do I need to spend feats to wield both rapiers?

Cheers,
=Blue(23)

One thing to consider is to convert the character concept from your old character to the new one, and not necessarially the character class. In other words, figure out the essence of your character, and then try to recreate that in the context of the 4E system. This may mean that your character isn't even a Paladin: maybe he's a Lawful Good Ranger.

Something to think about anyway.

 

[Cadfan]

The rogue can't really get ranger style two weapon fighting.

Rogue two weapon fighting works like this- wield a weapon in both hands. Take the feats Two Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Defense. Two Weapon Fighting grants a +1 to your damage, much like weapon focus except that it doesn't matter what weapon type you're using. Two Weapon Defense grants you bonuses identical to having a light shield, that is, +1 AC +1 Reflex.

Now you can attack only once per round, as per normal, but you can choose which weapon to use.

So take a look at it for a moment. Its functionally identical to taking Weapon Focus and Shield Proficiency: Light Shields, except that instead of having the benefit of a magical shield at medium and high levels, you get the benefit of an additional magic weapon, with the option to use its encounter and daily abilities as you please.

Its not 3e style TWF, but its still good. The feats are worth the benefits given if you examine them in the context of 4e, and it gives you an easy method for obtaining a diversity of attack types.

 

[nute]

The point of "two-weapon fighting" has been reduced to fluff now, since there are no more iterative attacks in 4e as a basic rule. (Yes, there are powers that subvert this, but that's part of the 'specifics beat generalities' rule)

A former two-weapon fighter can be done in any class by simply using an off-hand weapon designated as such. What this then does is effectively offer you a secondary attack option with no penalties.

4e assumes everyone to be ambidextrous, so long as you're holding an off-hand (which is the same property, basically, as 3.x "light" weapon) weapon in your non-dominant hand.

Example: Jim-Bob the swashbuckling paladin of Beelzebub wields a +2 thundering rapier in one hand, and a +4 poisoned dagger in the other. The dagger is an off-hand weapon. He can attack with either as part of a basic attack or with any power with the "weapon" keyword. He might want to use the rapier for when he knows he can easily hit the opponent and wants to do big damage, or if he needs the extra accuracy, he can opt to use the dagger.

Attacking in one round and hitting with both weapons will require specific ranger class powers, since the purpose of that class (in one of its builds) is two-weapon fighting. That's their schtick.