Rogues and Two Weapon Fighting

[Wraithdrit]

Also, if two weapon attack is anything like the other ranger multi-attacks (I've looked at the ranged multi attack stuff) it goes from 1[w]+dex (str for melee probably) to 2 1[w] attacks with no modifier. So while you are getting 'more attacks' you are not getting more of your base attacks.

If that is the case then think of a d8 damage long sword in each hand as:
1D8 + 1d8 (if both hit) = Average of 9pts
vs
1D8 + 3 (assuming a +3 stat bonus) = Average of 7.5pts.

I look at the twin attack abilities as a way to hedge your bet and most likely get SOME damage instead of trying to get a higher amount of damage with a lesser possibility to hit.

- Wraith

 

[Sitara]

So now the question is;

Is Artemis Entreri now a ranger? Or does he too only have the TWF and TWD feats?

 

[monboesen]

Is Artemis Entreri now a ranger?

And the answer is: Artemis Entreri is a fictional character in a series of novels. Not a game construct in 4ed D&D.

 

[hong]

And the answer is: Artemis Entreri is a fictional character in a series of novels. Not a game construct in 4ed D&D.

Oh, just RUIN MY WHOLE LIFE, WHY DON'T YOU.

 

[Sitara]

Ah-HUM?

The reason we are having this discussion is BECAUSE of a certain TWF dark-elven ranger. Therefore, I think the question is important. IMO right now, we can assume Entreri is a fighter with the TWF and TWD feats.

But I guess that could change when more fighter powers are released.

 

[Acarg51]

There is one other reason I can see for splashing some ranger into rogue to pick some TWF powers -- more chances to crit. Combine with that paragon path that allows you to crit with daggers on 18-20, and some Vicious daggers.

 

[Dizlag]

AZRogue,

What Wraithdrit said about the Ranger's Twin attack is true and a pretty kewl power. If you create a half-elf, you'll get a free at-will power from another class that you can use as an encounter power. So, a half-elf rogue with the Ranger's Twin Attack will only be able to do it once an encounter.

The Two Weapon Fighting feat grants you a +1 damage on your attack when fighting with two weapons. Still, only one attack, but your damage goes up by a point.

Dizlag

 

[Peter LaCara]

Here. Have a twin dagger rogue/ranger. He was fun to make.

[sblock=Half-Elf Rogue/Ranger (Daggermaster) 12]
Str 17 Con 16 Dex 19 Int 11 Wis 9 Cha 17

Hp 83, Bloodied 41
Surge 20, Per Day 9

AC 26 Fort 22 Ref 26 Will 22

Initiative +10, Speed 6

Skills:
Acrobatics +15
Athletics +14
Bluff +14
Endurance +14
Stealth +18
Streetwise +14
Thievery +14
Diplomacy +11

Race:
Group Diplomacy

Class:
First Stike
Artful Dodger
Rogue Weapon Talent
Sneak Attack (+3d6)
Hunter's Quarry 1/enc (+2d6)

Paragon:
Daggermaster's Action (spend an AP to reroll a dagger attack or dmg)
Daggermaster's Precision (daggers crit on an 18-20)

Feats:
Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Agile Athlete
Evasion
Warrior of the Wild
Novice Power
Adept Power
Acolyte Power

Basic Attacks:
Daggers +16vAC; 1d4+7
Shuriken (6/12) +13vAC; 1d6+4

At Will:
Piercing Strike +17vRef; 1d4+8
Sly Flourish +17vAC; 1d4+11

Encounter:
Positioning Strike +17vWill; 1d4+8 and slide 1
Claws of the Griffon +16vAC, 2 atks; 2d4+7/1d4+7
Twin Strike +16vAC; 1d4+4/1d4+3
Bait and Switch +17vWill; 2d4+8, switch places with target then shift 3
Critical Opportunity (minor, must have crit target this turn) +17vAC; 3d4+8

Daily:
Easy Target +17vAC; 2d4+8, target slowed and grants combat advantage (save ends); miss: 1/2 dmg and grants combat advantage until end of next turn
Two Wolf Pounce +16vAC, 2 atks; 2d4+7/1d4+7; Eff: shift 2, make secondary attack: +16vAC; 2d4+4
Knockout +17vFort; 2d8+8, target knocked unconscious (save or damage ends); miss: 1/2 dmg and target dazed until end of next turn

Utility:
Meditation of the Blade (daily minor) increase dagger dmg to d6s
Expeditious Stride (encounter minor) until end of next turn, increase speed by 4 and may shift 1 additional square
Ignoble Escape (encounter move) cancel a mark, shift 6
Master of Deceit (encounter free) reroll a Bluff check

Gear:
Twin Magic Daggers +3
Leather Elven Battle Armor +3 (+5 to saves against being slowed or immobilized; encounter minor: +2 speed until end of next turn)
Elven Cloak +3 (+3 stealth)
Shurikens
Adventurer's Kit
Thieves Tools[/sblock]

 

[Spatula]

I've played around with trying to make a "true" TWFing fighter, out of curiosity more than anything, as I'm not hung up on getting an extra attack from wielding a 2nd weapon. My conclusion that it isn't worth it - you need to use 4 of your 6 heroic feats, and forgo your paragon path, in order to get an at-will TWF attack. Not to mention you need to wait until 11th level. You're better off just playing a ranger, or using a 2H weapon.

However, the two heroic TWFing feats are pretty cool, and a net gain for rogues, in any case. +1 damage, +1 AC/Refl (same as using a light shield), and if you use a dagger for your OH you can throw it when needed (some rogue powers work with melee and ranged attacks). The fighter starts with heavy shield proficiency so it's not so great for him... but the higher-level TWF feat is (use both weapons when making OAs).

 

[AZRogue]

Thanks for the replies, guys. You all make some good points.

As I said before, I really like the two feats for TWF that have been mentioned. They're great, IMO. The option to actually attack with both weapons just seemed like a cool thing that a Rogue, wielding two small weapons like daggers, SHOULD be able to do and the failure to include that option irked me very badly. Would TWF have been even made into a Ranger-only ability if it wasn't for that damnable drow? I don't think so, which is sad. He may be a popular character for some, but he shouldn't be so persuasive as to have the entire ruleset molded for him. A poor design choice, IMO.

A half-elf Rogue seems to me to be the best bet, at the moment. Once an encounter is enough to make me feel like I can at least do the deed.

And, hopefully, the designers stop and consider for a moment and include the option in the Martial book.