D&D 5E Rogue's Cunning Action to Hide: In Combat??

[jmartkdr2]

Being unseen gives you advantage on attack rolls.

Having advantage on your attack roll triggers Sneak Attack damage.

Seriously, people the mental gymnastics you guys go through just to negate the rogue's primary ability is astonishing.

But at level 5 that three whole dice of extra damage! With a hand crossbow you're doing 4d6+dex in one shot!

A greatsword fighter only does 2d6 + strength, reroll 1's and 2's, twice a turn, which isn't too much at all /s

 

[Plaguescarred]

Being unseen gives you advantage on attack rolls.

Having advantage on your attack roll triggers Sneak Attack damage.

Seriously, people the mental gymnastics you guys go through just to negate the rogue's primary ability is astonishing.

Yeah i think the rogue needs all the help he can since it ranks among the mid to worse classes in D&D 5E (10/13)

 

[Charlaquin]

So, 5e classes generally fall into one of two broad archetypes: high at-will damage with only a small boost from expending limited resources (“nova”) or low at-will damage with a big boost from expending limited resources. The rogue is an unusual case as the only class with no ability to nova. They have no limited resources to spend, they’re all at-will damage, all the time. And with the way the game balances at-will damage vs. nova damage, that ought to mean that rogues should be the best at-will damage dealers to compensate for their lack of nova potential. But that isn’t really the case. Rogues perform about on par with fighters for at-will damage. And that’s contingent on them getting Sneak Attack every single turn.

Now, it can seem like rogues do fine not sneak attacking every turn. Part of this is because they deal very high damage per hit, and our brains focus on that, even though other characters are doing more total damage split up between multiple less damaging attacks. Part of it is because even if they miss a few sneak attacks here and there, their at-will damage output is still higher than the at-will damage output of the classes that rely on their nova abilities. But regardless of what our flawed ape brains may think, the fact of the matter is that rogues’ overall damage output is only passable if they get Sneak Attack every turn, and it’s actually quite low if they don’t.

 

[cbwjm]

Being unseen gives you advantage on attack rolls.

Having advantage on your attack roll triggers Sneak Attack damage.

Seriously, people the mental gymnastics you guys go through just to negate the rogue's primary ability is astonishing.

Hardly ever comes up since rogues gain sneak attack by having a hostile creature next to the target. People seem to think not being able to hide every round is a serious limiter on the rogue, but it really isn't.

 

[Oofta]

So, 5e classes generally fall into one of two broad archetypes: high at-will damage with only a small boost from expending limited resources (“nova”) or low at-will damage with a big boost from expending limited resources. The rogue is an unusual case as the only class with no ability to nova. They have no limited resources to spend, they’re all at-will damage, all the time. And with the way the game balances at-will damage vs. nova damage, that ought to mean that rogues should be the best at-will damage dealers to compensate for their lack of nova potential. But that isn’t really the case. Rogues perform about on par with fighters for at-will damage. And that’s contingent on them getting Sneak Attack every single turn.

Now, it can seem like rogues do fine not sneak attacking every turn. Part of this is because they deal very high damage per hit, and our brains focus on that, even though other characters are doing more total damage split up between multiple less damaging attacks. Part of it is because even if they miss a few sneak attacks here and there, their at-will damage output is still higher than the at-will damage output of the classes that rely on their nova abilities. But regardless of what our flawed ape brains may think, the fact of the matter is that rogues’ overall damage output is only passable if they get Sneak Attack every turn, and it’s actually quite low if they don’t.

Except in every game I've been in, rogues do get sneak attacks practically every round. You don't need advantage.

Which is what I find confusing - you seem to be conflating the two.

 

[Charlaquin]

Hardly ever comes up since rogues gain sneak attack by having a hostile creature next to the target. People seem to think not being able to hide every round is a serious limiter on the rogue, but it really isn't.

It is because one attack roll with the potential to deal sneak attack damage has a significantly less average damage than two attack rolls with the potential to deal sneak attack damage. Rogues need two-weapon fighting or advantage on a single attack roll to keep up with other at-will classes in terms of average damage per round.

Of course, not everyone cares about maintaining parity between classes in terms of average damage per round. But a lot of people do.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Except in every game I've been in, rogues do get sneak attacks practically every round. You don't need advantage.

Which is what I find confusing - you seem to be conflating the two.

DMs who are stingy with things like hiding in combat tend to be the same dm's who rule you need to actually flank the target to get sneak attack, or just rename it backstab and take the name literally and wonder why the rogue's player is confused by the the totally clear interpretation of the rules as written in the 1e PHB while the rest of the game uses 5e rules...

I'm only a little bitter.

 

[Charlaquin]

Except in every game I've been in, rogues do get sneak attacks practically every round. You don't need advantage.

Which is what I find confusing - you seem to be conflating the two.

See my response to cbwjm. Getting two d20 rolls vs. one has a significant impact on average damage per round, by reducing the number of rounds on which you don’t deal sneak attack damage due to a missed attack.

 

[Oofta]

It is because one attack roll with the potential to deal sneak attack damage has a significantly less average damage than two attack rolls with the potential to deal sneak attack damage. Rogues need two-weapon fighting or advantage on a single attack roll to keep up with other at-will classes in terms of average damage per round.

Of course, not everyone cares about maintaining parity between classes in terms of average damage per round. But a lot of people do.

With bounded accuracy, it's usually not a big deal. That, and the big damage others do also relies on hitting or targets failing saves.

That and rogues get a lot of utility outside of combat to compensate. They aren't meant to be the best damage dealers in the game by design.

 

[Undrave]

I don’t, I think they’re great. They do exactly what they need to and leave the rest up to the DM.

This is just one of those rule that just drops inexperienced DM into the deep without a single floater or even a pool noodle. "Rulings not rules" is all well and peachy, but some Erathis-damned examples would do wonders for both players and DM (i.e. be in both PHB and DMG).

The way I run it is that there has to be some kind of cover that gives the rogue an opportunity to hide and it needs to be reasonable that the target doesn't know exactly where the rogue is going to attack from. So if a the rogue just goes around the corner and has to reappear from the exact same corner to get line of sight, it's not going to work. On the other hand, disappear around a corner, climb up and fire from the roof has a chance to work.

The idea is kind of a "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." In general attack from a spot will work once but the enemy doesn't forget you exist and they'll be watching if they know where you'll be attacking from. At a certain point the rogue isn't hiding for purposes of gaining advantage as much as getting the benefit of being totally concealed.

So it's not going to be available every round, every combat, but should be available on a fairly regular basis. It's not like rogues need advantage, they tend to do plenty of damage in games I've played anyway.

EDIT: this is also why I rarely do "dungeon crawls" with small empty rooms only occupied by monsters and a pile o' treasure. I want to give people options to creatively use the environment.

What if it's like a large pillar or a big table on its side and and the Halfling rogue could pop out from either side?