UngeheuerLich
Legend
All in all, I think int and wisdom should be swapped in several skills. Or some skills should be tied to two abilities (like climbing)
Rogues: Not Skill-y enough?
- Thread starter Remathilis
- Start date
Well, thankfully, as the DM, you can make the skills apply to any of the ability scores that you want.
Well if you notice the entry for Thief, it talks about needing to steal in order to survive and yet you don't get a bonus to Pick Pockets. Seems a bit odd to me.
Remathilis
Legend
I realize this is beyond the scope of the playtest, but I'm going to wax a little on skills.
I actually think that the final game will do well to have a "skill list" of common skills in the game. That is, assuming the following:
1.) Its not all-inclusive
2.) Its not a barrier to use (in most cases).
The problem with 3e/4e skills was since DCs ramped up quickly, you never tried stuff untrained because failure was assured. It always payed to focus on a small group of skills and forget the rest. The lower DCs of Next fixes that; anyone with a decent dex has a chance to move silently for example (barring disadvantage).
That said, I think most people would like a small list of skills they're "good" at, reflecting training and focus in those things. Additionally (and more importantly) they kinda need to define what those skills DO. Think about how something like Climb or Gather Information is defined in the game. Even skills like Commerce need something like this else I as a player (and I as a DM) really don't know what that skill should be allowed to do. Again, a list of guidelines is enough (a character trained in commerce knows how to appraise objects (Int), haggle for better prices (Cha), and is familiar with how to find common goods in a market(Wis)). The dwarf can try to haggle, but the halfling is just better at it.
The 2nd edition PHB defined around 70 proficiencies in the PHB, and that's the tip of the iceburg of all of 2e's NWP (probably over 300 all sources included). Assuming we combine a few together and then add ones acquired over 3e/4e, I think a reasonable list of around 30 common "skills" in the PHB, with new ones added as needed in supplements.
Training should grant the +3 bonus it does, and perhaps unlock special features as needed (such as using thief tools to pick locks).
Finally (and back to point), some classes should just grant free skills, regardless of build and such. 4e got that right. A Rogue should have Pick Pocket, Open Lock, Find/Remove Traps and Stealth free (mimicking the old AD&D thief skills) plus his 3 skills for Background and 1-2 more for scheme (such as bluff for charlatans or tumble for acrobats). Clerics should get religious lore, wizards arcane lore, rangers tracking, bards performance, etc. I shouldn't need to take the appropriate background just to get those classic abilities for my class.
In short, if skills are going to be part of this, don't half-ass them. Its easy to turn them off (just allow anything untrained and ignore background) but if you are going to use them, make sure they can be used. Right now, they feel like an afterthought...
I actually think that the final game will do well to have a "skill list" of common skills in the game. That is, assuming the following:
1.) Its not all-inclusive
2.) Its not a barrier to use (in most cases).
The problem with 3e/4e skills was since DCs ramped up quickly, you never tried stuff untrained because failure was assured. It always payed to focus on a small group of skills and forget the rest. The lower DCs of Next fixes that; anyone with a decent dex has a chance to move silently for example (barring disadvantage).
That said, I think most people would like a small list of skills they're "good" at, reflecting training and focus in those things. Additionally (and more importantly) they kinda need to define what those skills DO. Think about how something like Climb or Gather Information is defined in the game. Even skills like Commerce need something like this else I as a player (and I as a DM) really don't know what that skill should be allowed to do. Again, a list of guidelines is enough (a character trained in commerce knows how to appraise objects (Int), haggle for better prices (Cha), and is familiar with how to find common goods in a market(Wis)). The dwarf can try to haggle, but the halfling is just better at it.
The 2nd edition PHB defined around 70 proficiencies in the PHB, and that's the tip of the iceburg of all of 2e's NWP (probably over 300 all sources included). Assuming we combine a few together and then add ones acquired over 3e/4e, I think a reasonable list of around 30 common "skills" in the PHB, with new ones added as needed in supplements.
Training should grant the +3 bonus it does, and perhaps unlock special features as needed (such as using thief tools to pick locks).
Finally (and back to point), some classes should just grant free skills, regardless of build and such. 4e got that right. A Rogue should have Pick Pocket, Open Lock, Find/Remove Traps and Stealth free (mimicking the old AD&D thief skills) plus his 3 skills for Background and 1-2 more for scheme (such as bluff for charlatans or tumble for acrobats). Clerics should get religious lore, wizards arcane lore, rangers tracking, bards performance, etc. I shouldn't need to take the appropriate background just to get those classic abilities for my class.
In short, if skills are going to be part of this, don't half-ass them. Its easy to turn them off (just allow anything untrained and ignore background) but if you are going to use them, make sure they can be used. Right now, they feel like an afterthought...
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Although the implication of your proposal is that all rogues are thieves - what if you want an acrobatic, roguish character that doesn't steal or burgle? I think your idea would work better if the class was called thief than if it is called rogue.
Cheers
Cheers
Remathilis
Legend
Fine. Then lets make the "Thief" scheme grant PP, OL, F/RT, Stealth, Climb and Listen (the classic Thief skillset). and let other builds do differently: (Acrobat: Climb, Jump, Balance, Tumble, Stealth, etc. Charlatan: Bluff, Forgery, Stealth, Streetwise, Insight).
Moral of the story: a Thief is not OL, F/RT and Stealth only.
Unfortunately there "is" a thief scheme and it doesn't grant any kind of bonus to pick pockets, even though the description leads you to believe otherwise.
I sense we will be getting scheme bloat.
Li Shenron
Legend
Note that the current 3 Rogue's skills come from Rogue Scheme: Thief, so clearly there can be different schemes granting different skills.
Then remember that Backgrounds are optional in the sense that most likely you can choose not to pick a background (i.e. its 3 additional skills) and instead directly pick the 3 skills you want. Backgrounds are there to help you with reasonable selections, but you're not bound to them.
Also IIUC, these skills don't work so that they make you "trained" but just give you +3. If you don't have these on your list, you can still use the skill... in fact climb, bluff, pick pocket etc. are all things that anyone can try.
OTOH some skills have restrictions... see "Tools of the Trade", which makes the Rogue (apparently all rogues) proficient with Thieves' Tools which in turn unlock the full potential of Pick Locks and Disarm Traps. Non-Rogues may just not be able to get this proficiency (although I'm sure that there will be alternatives, in the worst case there will multiclassing).
The other option of course is to just wait and see the entire list of Backgrounds and then discover that there are a couple "crook" Backgrounds that end up covering Pick Pockets, Climb, and Perception. I can think immediately of an "Urchin" background that could immediately cover those three. So you take Urchin alongside the Thief rogue scheme, and voila, you have your "classic" thief with all applicable skills.
Just because this Rogue has the Commoner Background doesn't mean that's the only option your Thieves are going to have.
Remathilis
Legend
See, I don't want something that's inherently part of the class/archetype to be a supplemental element. Firstly, the rogue/thief/whatever should be able to work without a background (they are optional, as the char-sheet says). Secondly, I don't want pick-pocket (or such) just tied to one background; my namesake PC was a nobleman who was adept at sleight of hand. He'd have the noble background, but most of the classic thief skills.
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