Rogues, Spot, and Searching for Traps

[Eye Tyrant]

Situation: Halfling Rogue creeping down a tunnel as point man... "I'm looking for traps and whatnot (MS and Hiding)"...

The Rogue is not actively Searching any given 5' square... I'm going to rule that the Rogue, when in "point-man" status will get a Spot check every 30' (unless lighting prevents) to notice anything "unusual" (ie. traps) in the evironment. If and when that something "unusual" is noticed then the Rogue can Search for a trap...

This does make sense right?

If this is covered in the books please forgive my dumb question, and if so please direct me to it...

 

[Thanee]

It's not really covered. Your solution is fair, tho.

It only delays the game, if the rogue is actively searching every friggin' square.

I'd even use the search skill instead of spot and let the rogue automatically search for traps when he comes within 5' of them (much like an elf can automatically search for secret doors). Rolling secretly, of course...

Bye
Thanee

 

[jgsugden]

Situation: Halfling Rogue creeping down a tunnel as point man... "I'm looking for traps and whatnot (MS and Hiding)"...

The Rogue is not actively Searching any given 5' square... I'm going to rule that the Rogue, when in "point-man" status will get a Spot check every 30' (unless lighting prevents) to notice anything "unusual" (ie. traps) in the evironment. If and when that something "unusual" is noticed then the Rogue can Search for a trap...

This does make sense right?

If this is covered in the books please forgive my dumb question, and if so please direct me to it...

Search and spot don't always make a lot of sense. Common sense doesn't serve as a guide to help you distinguish between when each skill should be used. Many people think that it makes more sense for a rogue to use a spot check to detect the presence of a trap and a search check to determine how the trap works.

To keep the rogue class unique, however, this is not how the skills work. Search must be used to find a trap. Spot does no good.

As a DM, I do allow spot checks to reveal hints about an area. For instance, in a recent adventure the rogue noticed a wall that had been singed, but cleaned afterwards. He didn't know what to make of it and ambled forward into a fireball trap. The spot check I gave him provided a clue that a trap might be present, but it did not tell him for sure that a trap was present. To find that out, he'd need a search roll.

 

[Majere]

I believe that, the RAW state you have to search for traps and you would have to actively search every square.
Seems a little excessive to me.

Our House rule is that if a rogue delacirs he is "searching for traps as I go" then if the rogue passess over a trap the Dm will roll for him automatically. If the rogue makes his check he finds the trap, if not he sets it off.

Another alternative I have toyed with is using spot to allow rogues to notice traps when they are not actively searching. This gives rogues an advantage (they always have a change to notice traps) but I never found it unbalancing.

MAjere

 

[Eye Tyrant]

Where my rationale comes from...

Anyone can Spot as an untrained skill...

Only Rogues can Search for a Trap with a DC higher then 10 (I think that's right, or that might be Track for Rangers)...

I follow the logic a few posters have claimed... searching every 5' square is insane! So I figure Spot will allow said Rogue to notice anything fishy (like the singed marks above). At which point he can move to that area (5' square) and actively Search for the trap... If the trigger lies between the Rogue and the area the Rogue is going to investigate (they aren't always one and the same) then he would set said trap off... Otherwise he gets his Search check as normal.

This seems feasible to me and allows for realism while speeding up game-play at the sametime (which is the real issue).

Any other thoughts I should consider (other then this probably belongs in House-Rules).

 

[jgsugden]

A note on searching every 5' - You don't have to roll a die for every 5'.

If there is a trap and they beat the DC, inform them of where they found the (closest) trap. If they didn't find it and there is a trap, set it off. If there is no trap, just tell them they've reached the end of the corridor and don't bother rolling.

Don't forget: The assumption under the trap rules is *not* that you'll find and disarm all traps. It is that you'll think to search for some of them and you'll actually manage to find only some of the ones for which you search. A trap going off is ok.

So, if the PCs want to be very careful in an area they can be very safe and take 20 on every 5' area and go slowly. They can go at a much faster rate, 5' per round, and still have a good chance of finding traps. Or, they can throw caution to the wind and move 3, 4 or 6 times as fast.

Making trap finding easier just makes traps a non-issue. If that is what you want, just don't use traps.

 

[Eye Tyrant]

A note on searching every 5' - You don't have to roll a die for every 5'.

If there is a trap and they beat the DC, inform them of where they found the (closest) trap. If they didn't find it and there is a trap, set it off. If there is no trap, just tell them they've reached the end of the corridor and don't bother rolling.

Don't forget: The assumption under the trap rules is *not* that you'll find and disarm all traps. It is that you'll think to search for some of them and you'll actually manage to find only some of the ones for which you search. A trap going off is ok.

So, if the PCs want to be very careful in an area they can be very safe and take 20 on every 5' area and go slowly. They can go at a much faster rate, 5' per round, and still have a good chance of finding traps. Or, they can throw caution to the wind and move 3, 4 or 6 times as fast.

Making trap finding easier just makes traps a non-issue. If that is what you want, just don't use traps.

I want my traps, be sure of that

I'm just running into "I have to roll for every square?!" To which I answered "yeah"...

How to expedite game-play without the mechanics getting too cheesey is the real issue...

 

[Urbannen]

As has been said, Spot and Search don't make sense, for a whole of of reasons I've listed below*. This leads me to believe that a solution to the problem of the slow-going rogue is to abolish the Search skill:

-Characters use Spot to find traps and secret doors.
-When a PC looks for an object inside a container, such as a chest, what he finds will depend on the actions he describes his character performing. In other words, if a wand is hidden under a blanket in a chest and a player says his PC looks under the blanket, then the PC finds the wand.
-Increase the DC of all Spot checks to find secret doors and traps by 5.
-Characters get a +5 bonus when actively using the Spot skill. At the DMs discretion, this +5 may only be used when within 5' and includes physical manipulation, such as knocking or prying.
-Elves get a +5 racial bonus to Spot secret doors that does not stack with their general +2 racial bonus to Spot.
-Only rogues can Spot traps with DCs of 25 or higher.

Getting rid of Search means that rogues can walk down the hallway without having to spend 6 seconds every 5 feet. Their chance of finding the trap won't be as good as if they took the extra time, but at least they would have a chance. It only makes sense that there would be discrete visual clues to hidden traps and doors that extremely alert characters might see.

OR you could give rogues the class ability to automatically have a chance to detect secret doors and traps when passing within 5 feet of them, thus keeping the skill system the same but drastically speeding up game play.


*Why Search doesn't make sense
In order to actively visually search an area closer than 10', you use Search. In order to actively visually search an area farther away than 10', you use Spot. In theory Spot is always passive, but it's really not.

Spot is theoretically Wisdom based because it is passive, and Search is Intelligence based because it is active. However, if you make an active Listen check, say by listening at a door, you use Wisdom as the modifier. Additionally if you are actively tracking, you use Wisdom as a modifier. Wisdom can be used to modify active skill use.

In theory you can use Search to find a trap without setting it off, implying that Search is entirely visual and requires no touch, at least when searching for traps. However, you cannot Spot a trap, even though you can find it with a completely visual scan.

Even though Search is supposedly active, elves can use it passively to essentially Spot secret doors.

 

[Eye Tyrant]

Double post

 

[Eye Tyrant]

As has been said, Spot and Search don't make sense, for a whole of of reasons I've listed below*. This leads me to believe that a solution to the problem of the slow-going rogue is to abolish the Search skill:

-Characters use Spot to find traps and secret doors.
-When a PC looks for an object inside a container, such as a chest, what he finds will depend on the actions he describes his character performing. In other words, if a wand is hidden under a blanket in a chest and a player says his PC looks under the blanket, then the PC finds the wand.
-Increase the DC of all Spot checks to find secret doors and traps by 5.
-Characters get a +5 bonus when actively using the Spot skill. At the DMs discretion, this +5 may only be used when within 5' and includes physical manipulation, such as knocking or prying.
-Elves get a +5 racial bonus to Spot secret doors that does not stack with their general +2 racial bonus to Spot.
-Only rogues can Spot traps with DCs of 25 or higher.

Getting rid of Search means that rogues can walk down the hallway without having to spend 6 seconds every 5 feet. Their chance of finding the trap won't be as good as if they took the extra time, but at least they would have a chance. It only makes sense that there would be discrete visual clues to hidden traps and doors that extremely alert characters might see.

OR you could give rogues the class ability to automatically have a chance to detect secret doors and traps when passing within 5 feet of them, thus keeping the skill system the same but drastically speeding up game play.


*Why Search doesn't make sense
In order to actively visually search an area closer than 10', you use Search. In order to actively visually search an area farther away than 10', you use Spot. In theory Spot is always passive, but it's really not.

Spot is theoretically Wisdom based because it is passive, and Search is Intelligence based because it is active. However, if you make an active Listen check, say by listening at a door, you use Wisdom as the modifier. Additionally if you are actively tracking, you use Wisdom as a modifier. Wisdom can be used to modify active skill use.

In theory you can use Search to find a trap without setting it off, implying that Search is entirely visual and requires no touch, at least when searching for traps. However, you cannot Spot a trap, even though you can find it with a completely visual scan.

Even though Search is supposedly active, elves can use it passively to essentially Spot secret doors.

I appreciate the input, but both of these alternatives seem a bit extreme to me. Either give all Rogues a racial trait that only Elves have or completely do away with Search :\ Neither are really the direction I want to go....

Thanks for the suggestion though