Rogues, Spot, and Searching for Traps

[Urbannen]

It sounds like you already know what you are looking for, but you just don't know it yet. Try the Socratic method.

However, if you use the method you described above...

I follow the logic a few posters have claimed... searching every 5' square is insane! So I figure Spot will allow said Rogue to notice anything fishy (like the singed marks above). At which point he can move to that area (5' square) and actively Search for the trap

...you are essentially substituting a Spot check for a Search check. If anyone can see an irregularity (and who can't?), you've basically clued anyone that can make the Spot check into the presence of the trap. Maybe a rogue has to make another Search check to learn how it works (which would really make it a Find Traps check, wouldn't it?) and then a Disable Device check to disable it, but anybody could be become alerted to it with a sufficiently high Spot check.

 

[Eye Tyrant]

It sounds like you already know what you are looking for, but you just don't know it yet. Try the Socratic method.

However, if you use the method you described above...



...you are essentially substituting a Spot check for a Search check. If anyone can see an irregularity (and who can't?), you've basically clued anyone that can make the Spot check into the presence of the trap. Maybe a rogue has to make another Search check to learn how it works (which would really make it a Find Traps check, wouldn't it?) and then a Disable Device check to disable it, but anybody could be become alerted to it with a sufficiently high Spot check.

I see your point... what makes more sense, giving them the Elf trait and not having to roll Spot every 30', or ruling Rogues (and only Rogues, since only they can disarm traps of DC: 25 or more) can use Spot to scan the area ahead for unusual anomalies that "could be" traps?

 

[Legildur]

Don't let the halfling use Spot for finding traps. Why do you think dwarves have Stonecunning?

Sure, dwarves don't move as silently as elves or halflings, and nor do they have the reflexes or spot checks of elves, but darkvision and stonecunning are invaluable for rogues that act as point men.

There are a couple of PrCs out there that allow a character to gain Stonecunning (and sometimes Darkvision) for those without it already.

Besides, the dwarven +2 con bonus helps offset finding traps the hard way

And if your rogue wants to spend all his time looking for traps, then wandering monsters will cure him of that habit quicksmart.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I do not understand what the big deal is. Just give the Rogue a Search roll for every trap and impose a penalty (and throw some extra dice rolls to keep them off balance). I think -5 would be about right.

The Spot check would also be appropriate if the trap might have other telltale clues. But that is situational and purely DM discretion.

 

[dcollins]

I'm just running into "I have to roll for every square?!" To which I answered "yeah"...

By the rules, the rogue must Search every square. That does not mean they have to roll for every square. I assume you don't roll Listen in every square (even as a free action), you only call for a Listen check when there's something that might be heard.

Here's what I do that's compliant with the rules. If a rogue wants to Search every square, they are in fact slowing the party with an action in every square (5 ft./round). According to DMG ch. 1, ("Rolling Dice"), Search is one of the skills the DM should roll for the player where they can't see the results. So only when they come upon an actual trap, I (the DM) then roll the check to see if they find it. Therefore the play session is not slowed down (even though the PCs are, in-game.)

 

[shilsen]

By the rules, the rogue must Search every square. That does not mean they have to roll for every square. I assume you don't roll Listen in every square (even as a free action), you only call for a Listen check when there's something that might be heard.

Here's what I do that's compliant with the rules. If a rogue wants to Search every square, they are in fact slowing the party with an action in every square (5 ft./round). According to DMG ch. 1, ("Rolling Dice"), Search is one of the skills the DM should roll for the player where they can't see the results. So only when they come upon an actual trap, I (the DM) then roll the check to see if they find it. Therefore the play session is not slowed down (even though the PCs are, in-game.)

What he said. If the rogue is getting the benefit of searching as he moves, he should take the penalty of wasting time as he does so.

 

[Eye Tyrant]

What he said. If the rogue is getting the benefit of searching as he moves, he should take the penalty of wasting time as he does so.

It appears that I have made things more complicated then neccessary... I guess the easiest fix is to keep up with PCs pertinent skills and make the rolls myself (Search or Spot)... If so, I need to delegate some responsibilties to my players, for me to keep track of the story, Init, badguys, rounds (what happens during) etc, and to add more, is almost too much for my tired brain...

So in review... I should just be rolling this stuff myself (as per the DMG), throw in a couple of fake rolls now and then, and not sweat the details so much.

That makes sense to me... I feel retarded now

 

[dcollins]

That makes sense to me... I feel retarded now

You shouldn't. This is a fairly common issue that comes up. For example, my rogue player got a little bit upset when I took over rolling his Search skills in this case.

The next thing you may need to deal with is the "Can I Take 10 or 20 in every space?" issue, thereby making every Search either automatically succeed or fail, but that's a whole different discussion...

 

[Eye Tyrant]

You shouldn't. This is a fairly common issue that comes up. For example, my rogue player got a little bit upset when I took over rolling his Search skills in this case.

The next thing you may need to deal with is the "Can I Take 10 or 20 in every space?" issue, thereby making every Search either automatically succeed or fail, but that's a whole different discussion...

Yeah, that was going to be my next issue... Any suggestions? According to the rules, you can take 20 on a Search, which equates to 2 minutes game-time (or 10 which takes up a minute). I guess the first thought is that to do this you would have to go square by square, thus slowing any movement to a crawl. So, off the top of my head I'm thinking that to do this movement is nil (or 5'), otherwise PCs would always take 20... if a PC wants to take 20 throughout the entire 30'x10' corridor it wil take him 24 minutes game time to do, and he would either be assured that there are no traps or he will find them...

 

[Len]

A lot of people seem to have a problem with taking 10 & 20, but I say just let them. If the rogue takes 10 all the time he'll find some traps and not others. That's fine. If he takes 20 all the time he'll find all or most of the traps, but it will take a very long time. My party is always having issues with finding safe places to rest and running out of food in dungeons, so I don't take 20 to search every square - it's just not practical.