Rogues, Spot, and Searching for Traps

[DarkMaster]

Spot is theoretically Wisdom based because it is passive, and Search is Intelligence based because it is active. However, if you make an active Listen check, say by listening at a door, you use Wisdom as the modifier. Additionally if you are actively tracking, you use Wisdom as a modifier. Wisdom can be used to modify active skill use.

Has nothing to do with active and passive, an hawk spot actively it's prey, Wisdom based skill are more instinct based, Intelligence based skill are more based on logical thinking. The rogue in my group has around 12 in spot and 10 in search. When he noticed the assassin hidden in the corner she relies only on her eyes to notice that little detail from the assassin body that quickly showed up when he got in position to shoot at them, but when she search for a trap she is using logic. She notice a smell and some traces of sulfur plus that the wood on the ground is unusually damaged, putting all these input together she figures out that this is a fireball trap and the the source of the fireball is from the west looking at the way the wood on the ground is damaged, here it's all logical thinking.

Therefore applying spot to detect trap is according to me a very bad idea, hawks have around spot 11 and will never find any trap.

 

[pensiv]

Taking 10 or taking 20 to find a trap is not an option because there is a penalty for failure--the trap is set off.

 

[jgsugden]

How I handle searches ...

This is actually how I handle searching. It works *incredibly* well.

Before the adventure begins, I preroll a lot of d20 rolls for each PC. I record this result without informing the player of what the result is.

Then, as they adventure, I let them tell me when they are searching.

When they come across something that can be found via search, like a trap, (and they are searching), I apply the next d20 roll to their search check and inform them if their search reveals anything. Every once in a while I have to add a bunch more rolls to the d20 lists, but that only takes a few seconds.

If they search but there is no trap present, I just look at my notes quickly and inform them they didn't find anything. This looks no different than me checking the d20 list, so they have no hint whether there is a trap they missed or whether there is no trap.

PCs move 5' per round while searching normally, or 5' per 20 rounds when taking 20.

This allows the normal search mechanisms to work as desired without slowing down the gameplay at all.

An alternative is to preroll search results for each PC that could find it when designing the trap. That also works.

As long as the results are random, it doesn't matter when you roll it.

No problems. No hints to the PCs on whether a trap is present or not. Easy.

 

[Eye Tyrant]

This is actually how I handle searching. It works *incredibly* well.

Before the adventure begins, I preroll a lot of d20 rolls for each PC. I record this result without informing the player of what the result is.

Then, as they adventure, I let them tell me when they are searching.

When they come across something that can be found via search, like a trap, (and they are searching), I apply the next d20 roll to their search check and inform them if their search reveals anything. Every once in a while I have to add a bunch more rolls to the d20 lists, but that only takes a few seconds.

If they search but there is no trap present, I just look at my notes quickly and inform them they didn't find anything. This looks no different than me checking the d20 list, so they have no hint whether there is a trap they missed or whether there is no trap.

PCs move 5' per round while searching normally, or 5' per 20 rounds when taking 20.

This allows the normal search mechanisms to work as desired without slowing down the gameplay at all.

An alternative is to preroll search results for each PC that could find it when designing the trap. That also works.

As long as the results are random, it doesn't matter when you roll it.

No problems. No hints to the PCs on whether a trap is present or not. Easy.

I keep seeing more and more alternatives :\ , but that's why I asked the orignal question. Looks like I have a number of good suggestions and just need to decide which route to go...

I like your latest tidbit jgsugden, looks like that would speed things up even more then just rolling myself during gameplay and faking rolls now and then... And it doesn't seem to deviate from the rules as written.

 

[dcollins]

Yeah, that was going to be my next issue... Any suggestions? According to the rules, you can take 20 on a Search, which equates to 2 minutes game-time (or 10 which takes up a minute)...

Actually, Take 10 takes no longer than a normal Search (1 round).

Frankly, these have been removed from the game I DM for a number of reasons. One is that I feel there needs to be a "PC must be able to determine when they are completed" rule for Take 10/20, which would not apply to skills like Listen/Spot/Search, etc. Two is you could assume that as DM taking over certain rolls, I am authorized to choose not to Take 10.

Some other threads have dealt with this.

 

[DarkMaster]

Taking 10 or taking 20 to find a trap is not an option because there is a penalty for failure--the trap is set off.

Yes it is, read correctly the search skill description and you will notice that there are no penality for failure.

 

[pensiv]

Taking 20:When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20.

I would count a trap as a "threat".

 

[Len]

I would count a trap as a "threat".

No, it's not, because if you fail the search nothing bad happens! It's Disable Device that has a chance to set off the trap.

 

[pensiv]

Taking basically The Rules As Written, you are right, Search does not set a trap off, but say for example you have a pressure plate on the floor. I would aducate that there's a chance that failing a search check at that pressure plate, the PC is likely to set it off.

That's just how I do it. I don't mean to say you're wrong for allowing someone to take 20 to search for a trap, but in my game, I wouldn't suggest it.

EDIT: I wouldn't set off the trap if they failed the search check, just if they rolled a 1. Taking 10 or 20 assumes that the PC rolled a 1 at least once.

 

[Eye Tyrant]

Taking basically The Rules As Written, you are right, Search does not set a trap off, but say for example you have a pressure plate on the floor. I would aducate that there's a chance that failing a search check at that pressure plate, the PC is likely to set it off.

That's just how I do it. I don't mean to say you're wrong for allowing someone to take 20 to search for a trap, but in my game, I wouldn't suggest it.

EDIT: I wouldn't set off the trap if they failed the search check, just if they rolled a 1. Taking 10 or 20 assumes that the PC rolled a 1 at least once.

I agree with Len, but I can see where you are coming from... however, taking 20 assumes that the PC fails a number of times, the rules don't specify that a 1 will always come up in 20 attempts.