Rogues stealing from their own party

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd like to know what the lines between party treasure and personal treasure are, as well. I frequently play rogues, and I would never even think of stealing from my party. However, in one particular case in a game, we had just cleared the room of the bad guys, looted and split the treasure fairly. My rogue found a secret door that was heavily trapped. The DM told me flat out "It looks very complicated..." So, I decided to try anyway, but was nervous and said, "uh, any of you guys want to aid me in this or something?" All that did was make them back up even further than they already were. So, I failed to disable it, rolled high on my save and survived the spell effect, and then unlocked the the treasure. I thought I deserved everything inside, since I litterally did all the work while the party cowered, and without me there, they wouldn't have been able to retrieve the hidden loot anyway, but all the players and the DM vehemently disagreed and labeled such an action as "stealing". Does anyone else think such a situation should also be considered stealing?

 

[interwyrm]

The first game I played, I was a rogue, and in the first 'boss fight' the boss had a flaming sword. So... when the enemy was mostly neutralized, I got near the boss and struck him down. A round later, the rest of the enemies had been dispatched, and I promptly lewted the sword. I refused to give it up to the party, and they attacked me, so I ran out the cave, and along the way dropped caltrops all over the place. I then hid in the bushes, and followed them to their campsite, where I stole their armor and spellbooks and left them a note saying that I would return their stuff if they promised not to attack...

Funny thing is... the weapon turned out to be intelligent, with an overpowering ego score for my 8-wis rogue.

 

[Glyfair]

However, in one particular case in a game, we had just cleared the room of the bad guys, looted and split the treasure fairly. My rogue found a secret door that was heavily trapped.

I thought I deserved everything inside, since I litterally did all the work while the party cowered, and without me there, they wouldn't have been able to retrieve the hidden loot anyway, but all the players and the DM vehemently disagreed and labeled such an action as "stealing". Does anyone else think such a situation should also be considered stealing?

Would you have been able to "clear the room of the bad guys", without the group? Presumably not. So, using your argument, you wouldn't have been able to retrieve the hidden loot by yourself, so the party should split the treasure.

If you are trying to decide on a party rule of thumb for the situation, you should remember that D&D parties tend to be role oriented. The fighters deal with fighting, the clerics do the healing, the wizards deal with arcane objects and the rogues deal with traps and locks (yes, this is oversimplified,especially in the current metagame, but is still mostly true). Should the cleric be complaining because the rogue isn't helping heal?

 

[Bagpuss]

So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other or do you meta game an agrement that players won't steal from each other?

You implication is that you need to metagame to avoid stealing from each other. When that is simply not the case. As has been pointed out characters that steal from their own party don't tend to last very long, its not metagaming to not steal from associates, its sensible in character behaviour for even the most chaotic of rogues.

 

[jdrakeh]

So as a gamer, do you appreciate being in a game where the realism enforcement is on and you can steal from each other

Note that it's isn't necessarily realistic for party members to steal from one another, unless the characters engaging in such back-stabbing, petty, larceny are complete and total bastards. Honestly, I think it is probably more realistic for travelling companions to not steal from one another, given that causing internal strife in a party tends to deprive party members of other benefits (such as being able to sleep with their eyes closed).

 

[the Jester]

If it suits the character to steal from the party, so be it.

If it suits the party to kick the thief out, kill him or worse, so be it.

As a player I had a (relatively) recent experience that was very interesting in these regards. I was playing a LN dwarf, who was made CE by a curse. I kept a lot of the party treasure; so I started skimming off the top. None of them ever caught me.

Later, I atoned and turned LG. I confessed to the party that I had been stealing from them and more than repaid everyone back. Most of them weren't even my old party-mates, most of them having died, but I felt obligated nonetheless.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Had an odd variation on this when I was GMing. One player was saddled with keeping track of and selling any unusable loot the party gathered up... he wasn't thrilled at this role, and kept asking for someone else to do it. No one stepped up... was quite a lot of work at ~16th level.

So he decided to invest in some diplomacy skill and a few minor diplomacy boosting items. He took to negotiating all sales, became quite a good trader and regularly got more than the 'basic' 50% of market value. Reckoned he averaged around 55% of the base value. He pocketed the 5% and divided the rest amongst the party... Did this all out of session. I warned him it might cause problems, but the choice was his.

There was a great deal of arguing when someone finally worked it out. Couple of players not happy with him, couple thought it was fair enough. Was a big in character shouting match in an inn!

What would your view be on that?

 

[diaglo]

What would your view be on that?

that's my job in our party.

i have 1 rank in diplomacy and -1 from cha.
but i'm the only character connected with a guild to fence items.

so i calculate the sales of party treasure. and hand out the booty accordingly.

i also gather information from the guild about other possible adventures. and on occassion do my own freelance stuff if it is the same direction the party is headed.

but other characters also have similar missions/quests/hidden secrets. the cleric has been leading us around looking for a lost sword. which we have recovered multiple times. since his church keeps losing it.

the druid has a mission too. and the sorceror. and the bard. and the justicar. and so on..

i also end up chronicling the party (see story hour in my sig) and mapping.

and testing all the traps.

but i see these as the risks. so when i take a few things or earn a few things on side quests. i don't see them as a problem. esp since i use that money to pay for others things. pay for lodging. pay for the ale and whores. etc...

edit: at the same time i pay for my own healing. buy my own wand of clw which is used by all. pay for pearls for identifying magic by the bard. pay for my own armor and weapons. buy scrolls for the sorceror... mostly cuz i'm carrying his money. give a returning pc his share when he caught back up with us..

 

[just__al]

I'd like to know what the lines between party treasure and personal treasure are, as well. I frequently play rogues, and I would never even think of stealing from my party. However, in one particular case in a game, we had just cleared the room of the bad guys, looted and split the treasure fairly. My rogue found a secret door that was heavily trapped. The DM told me flat out "It looks very complicated..." So, I decided to try anyway, but was nervous and said, "uh, any of you guys want to aid me in this or something?" All that did was make them back up even further than they already were. So, I failed to disable it, rolled high on my save and survived the spell effect, and then unlocked the the treasure. I thought I deserved everything inside, since I litterally did all the work while the party cowered, and without me there, they wouldn't have been able to retrieve the hidden loot anyway, but all the players and the DM vehemently disagreed and labeled such an action as "stealing". Does anyone else think such a situation should also be considered stealing?

Picture this situation. The party is suddenly ambushed by shadows and BIG FREAKING ARMORED GHOULS.

First round of combat you get your only magic weapon sundered by the ghouls and the party cleric, wizard and barbarian with his unholy greataxe slaughter the undead but you did nothing except get your flaming rapier broken.

Should you not get treasure and experience because you did nothing?

 

[Tarangil]

I usually tell any "shady" characters players that when it comes to stealing within the party, it creates nothing but discord and infighting among the group and nobody in the end has fun playing.

The ONLY times I let that slide is if someone in the group is a Kender, or has a Kleptomainiac as an insanity