Rogues with daggers

[Wraith Form]

No offense, but....

I can't take this any more: the word is DUAL.

A duel, which is what you've been writing, is a form of contest between two people, like a sword duel or a pistol duel.

Dual, the word you're looking for, indicates "two" - dual - wielding, as in wielding two weapons.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

So, you're a Rog3 so far.

Which would you rather concentrate on, sticking holes in people or being Mad Skillz Guy?

If you're going to Stick Holes in People, you could take Swa3 (for the free Weapon Finesse* and Int bonus to damage), Ftr 2 (two bonus feats), and Clr 2. Why two levels of cleric? Grave Strike, from Complete Adventurer, lets you sneak attack undead for one round. Also, two levels of cleric rids you of massive multiclassing penalties.

Of course, going this route, you still won't have more than +2d6 in sneak attack damage, and your roguely skills are shot all to heck, but it'll give you the feats you need to enter Tempest and Invisible Blade. Just not right away.

Let's see...you have TWF and Weapon Finesse now. To enter Invisible Blade, you need WF: Dagger. To enter Tempest**, you need Imp. Two-Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. That's another six feats. You can enter Invisible Blade starting at 7th level if you just keep taking Rogue. Without using flaws to generate additional feats, though, you couldn't hit Tempest until Epic levels (or using your Rogue special abilities for feats, which is usually contraindicated). Even with the above class build, the two bonus feats mean that you can't hit Tempest until 16th level at least.

I'd suggest just sticking with Rogue for now and taking WF: Dagger and going up the TWF tree. When you feel like it, you can take Invisible Blade and get more fun sneak attack and bluffing bonuses.

Brad

* - Were you to go this way, beg the DM to let you un-take 3rd level and put Swa1 there, since that gives you Weapon Finesse for free. That frees up a feat for WF: Dagger.

** - By all that is holy, this is a beautiful PrC. Everyone who ever wanted to use two weapons at once should run out right now and pick up Complete Adventurer.

 

[Impeesa]

Why two levels of cleric? Grave Strike, from Complete Adventurer, lets you sneak attack undead for one round. Also, two levels of cleric rids you of massive multiclassing penalties.

You know what's even easier than taking a second level of cleric to avoid multiclassing penalties? Taking no levels of cleric, decent ranks in UMD, and a Wand of $HANDY_SPELL.

Also, if you can cram in 5 levels Rogue and all 5 of Invisible Blade, that's 6d6 sneak attack progression. Not quite full, but use the other levels for Tempest, and maybe a bit of Fighter or the oft-mentioned Swashbuckler dip, and those numerous extra opportunities for multiple sneak attacks will make up for it.

--Impeesa--

 

[Demoquin]

Do you have the PrC stats for the Invisible Blade, Tempest, and the Swashbuckler? I dont have any of the books at all (yet.)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Did anyone suggest Improved Feint already?

 

[Aust Diamondew]

FLANK.

A flanking TWF rogue can out damage a fighter.

 

[Impeesa]

Do you have the PrC stats for the Invisible Blade, Tempest, and the Swashbuckler? I dont have any of the books at all (yet.)

Invisible Blade is in Complete Warrior, Tempest is in Complete Adventurer (should the opportunity arise, don't touch the old version in Masters of the Wild with a ten foot pole), and Swashbuckler is a core class in Complete Warrior. Hopefully someone in your group has copies of these that you can poke around in.

--Impeesa--

 

[argo]

I'm going to bring this up since nobody else has and it seems that you don't have much experience playing rogues. You should be aware that playing a melee rogue, which is what you are trying to do, is one of the trickiest melee builds in the game. IF you manage to get off a full-round of TWF sneak-attacks you can easily outpace the fighter in terms of sheer damage. However, that requires you to spend at least one round (and probably two) standing still in melee and standing still in melee is extremly hazardous to your health. Compared to the fighter your AC is weak and your HP are negligible, in other words many melee monsters are more than capable of turning you into a greasy red stain in one round. If you are facing intelligent foes then once they figure out that you are the party rogue and that you are not getting out of the way of melee then you will become a target of opportunity second only to the wizard.

None of this means that you shouldn't play this character of course, just that you should be aware of your weaknesses. Many rogues charge into battle looking for sneak-attack glory and then are left scratching their heads when their character goes from full health to dead in one round. Playing a melee rogue requires both brains and balls. Good luck.

Later.

 

[Darthjaye]

.........What he said. Don't be afriad to throw ranks (even cross class ranks) into Tumble and get ahold of Expertise. These two things when fighting defensively won't get you a lot of hits, but it will get you a great AC until someone moves into position for the payoff flank. Hit and RUN. Don't stick around longer than you have to. Spring Attack also a great acquire with this in mind. Tumble in, whack your guy, tumble out. Of course from what we've seen here realistically to take advantage of that you need Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, WF: Dagger, Combat Expertise, and Weapon Finesse....but that's all!!
Okay, so even if your not human this only takes 7 levels (4 of them must be fighter), but after that your set to be a able bodied fighting Rogue. Then go for your assassin thing if that's your cup'o'tea.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Ah, if only EN World would come out with EN Arsenal Daggers.... Lot of OGC material out in the field including stuff from Master of Arms and Beyond Monks, the Art of the Fight. Not to mention fighting schools from the good old Path of the Sword...