Role Features... Controller left out?

[keterys]

The 4E wizard suffers from the history of wizards in D&D. It's a hybrid class. You probably won't see a "pure" controller until they get to makea brand new class. I'm hoping that elementalists will be this class, because they're perfect for it.

Interesting point. All the sadder that we only got one controller option, but that does make it easier to understand.

Magic missile doesn't auto hit, it's true, but some things are still legacy, after all

 

[Zurai]

I wouldn't use plural. If you are thinking of hail of arrow, it is not everyone in line of sight but everyone in range. It is pretty cool and clearly meant for minion control, seeing as it is mostly useless for anything else. But I would say that level 27 is pretty late in the game to stake your claim as a controller.

There's also the Battlefield Archer power that targets every Quarry, which could be up to 10 enemies (that's gonna be pretty much every enemy in line of sight). They also get a couple blast powers.

As for my point : It was simply that wizard are far superior to ranger when it comes to engaging several enemies at once. I wonder if you have some sort of personal stake in the ranger to lash back so hard at such an obvious suggestion.

That wasn't what I responded to, thank you. You said the archer ranger is the least 'controller' of the two ranger specs. It is my opinion that you have that reversed. I never made any statements about whether an archer ranger is 'as controller as a wizard' or any such comparison. Please don't try to twist what I'm saying to fit a different argument than the one I was addressing.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Well, from play, at 1st level:

The wizard is the only character who consistantly makes use of AoE effects.

He is also the only character who consistantly produces zones.

Other characters occasionally are attacking a second target, or have a daily that is an AoE, but the wizard is making a zone (well, a square) or aoe attack every round.

 

[keterys]

Level 1, perhaps. Using an easy comparison, clerics have area options at every attack option from level 9 on:

Cleric
1) Clost burst 3, conjuration that does a close burst 1 every round until encounter ends
5) Zone
9) Wall, Close burst 2, Area burst 2
13) Close blast 5
15) Area burst 2, Close burst 3 Zone
17) Area burst 3, Close blast 5
19) Area burst 5 Zone, Close burst 3
23) Area burst 5
25) Close burst 5, Close burst 2 Zone
27) Area burst 2
29) Area burst 5 Zone

And that's only with the meager options available in the Player's Handbook where half of their options are melee. A year or two from now, the cleric will have area options at every single level choice.

Except for at-wills, everyone gets powers and they're on the same balance scale. The wizard has no _features_ which make him better at controlling than anyone else.

At-will AoE may be sufficient to make something a controller, but seems pretty dubious a distinction compared to everyone else's abilities that work even when they're higher level and aren't using at-will powers as often.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

I found the fey pact warlock to be more literally control oriented - like an enchantress or beguiler. I was kind of hoping to see a little bleed over from this to the wizard also. No Charm Person (or no hold person for the cleric, for that matter) ? The earliest mental power the wizard gets is Mesmeric hold (13th) the only others I see are Maze and Confusion. I haven't become intimately familiar with the wizard, but I would have liked to see more mental attacks and more battlefield shaping powers (stone to mud, anyone ?)

Also, see legions hold pg. 168, its stun in a massive area, like if it doesn't encompass every enemy on the map your not trying hard enough.

Level 1, perhaps. Using an easy comparison, clerics have area options at every attack option from level 9 on:

Cleric
1) Clost burst 3, conjuration that does a close burst 1 every round until encounter ends
5) Zone
9) Wall, Close burst 2, Area burst 2
13) Close blast 5
15) Area burst 2, Close burst 3 Zone
17) Area burst 3, Close blast 5
19) Area burst 5 Zone, Close burst 3
23) Area burst 5
25) Close burst 5, Close burst 2 Zone
27) Area burst 2
29) Area burst 5 Zone

And that's only with the meager options available in the Player's Handbook where half of their options are melee. A year or two from now, the cleric will have area options at every single level choice.

Except for at-wills, everyone gets powers and they're on the same balance scale. The wizard has no _features_ which make him better at controlling than anyone else.

At-will AoE may be sufficient to make something a controller, but seems pretty dubious a distinction compared to everyone else's abilities that work even when they're higher level and aren't using at-will powers as often.

Yeah clerics can affect areas with at least one ability after 9th level. But wizards have atleast 3 abilities that either attack multiple enemies or create something that will affect multiple enemies, at every single level. I understand that you think everyone is going to get a million abilities that will allow everyone to be a controller because of splatbooks, but really by that logic wizards are going to get alternative class abilities in splatbooks that allow them to be strikers or leaders then (since that's what defines roles?). You know at first I was saying that to be absurd but I wouldn't be surprised knowing WotC.

 

[keterys]

alternative class abilities in splatbooks that allow them to be strikers or leaders then

No... apparently the only role you can just 'steal' is controller. Not like you can just gain warlock curse for your wizard or, better yet, inspiring word 2/encounter, tactical presence, and combat leader.

But wizards have atleast 3 abilities that either attack multiple enemies or create something that will affect multiple enemies, at every single level.

Which is very meaningful, when you only get 1 Or if you're using Epic Seeker to just take the powers you want.

Back to that 'Warlock/Eternal Seeker w/ Arcane Initiate' vs 'Wizard/Eternal Seeker' comparison, is the wizard a better controller... and the wizard's potentially got his 1/enc orb, but the warlock has lots of stuff to balance against that so... not seeing the wizard being better.

Interesting and balanced, sure, but not really better at 'control' in any of the usual control areas like AoE, cripple, or herd. Unless fighting hordes of minion reinforcements in the 10th+ round, anyhow (go go at-wills)

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Level 1, perhaps. Using an easy comparison, clerics have area options at every attack option from level 9 on:

Cleric
1) Clost burst 3, conjuration that does a close burst 1 every round until encounter ends
5) Zone
9) Wall, Close burst 2, Area burst 2
13) Close blast 5
15) Area burst 2, Close burst 3 Zone
17) Area burst 3, Close blast 5
19) Area burst 5 Zone, Close burst 3
23) Area burst 5
25) Close burst 5, Close burst 2 Zone
27) Area burst 2
29) Area burst 5 Zone

And that's only with the meager options available in the Player's Handbook where half of their options are melee. A year or two from now, the cleric will have area options at every single level choice.

Except for at-wills, everyone gets powers and they're on the same balance scale. The wizard has no _features_ which make him better at controlling than anyone else.

At-will AoE may be sufficient to make something a controller, but seems pretty dubious a distinction compared to everyone else's abilities that work even when they're higher level and aren't using at-will powers as often.

And how many of those are offensive? Of course the Cleric is going to have AOEs, but mostly they are to fulfill his role as a leader and buff the party. The Wizard AOEs are attacks and hindrances. Thats the diffirence.

 

[Gloombunny]

And that's only with the meager options available in the Player's Handbook where half of their options are melee. A year or two from now, the cleric will have area options at every single level choice.

If in a year or two the wizard is being outdone as a controller by other classes, then we can start thinking about what to do about it then. Trying to come up with a fix now based on a vague prediction about what'll happen in future supplements is not productive.

 

[Minigiant]

Not all powers of the same type are the same. The wizard has:

Pure damage AOE with the highest damage (for brutes and soldiers)
Damage AOE with the longest range (for minions and artillery)
Ranged control with the longest range (for artillery, controllers, and lurkers)
AOE control with the better conditions (for skirmishers and leaders)
Zones with the best offensive capabilities (for brutes and soldiers)


The other roles can't take a guy out for a turn or two who is way over there.
The other roles have AOE with bad damage, horrible range, or a weak condition caused.


The wizard and other controller will go "Ok. You can't move fast anymore. Ummm... You guys. Yeah, you all are on fire and dead. And you. Yeah you way over there with the bow and the angry face. Take a nap (insert insult here)."

 

[Zurai]

The wizard has:

Pure damage AOE with the highest damage (for brutes and soldiers)
Damage AOE with the longest range (for minions and artillery)
Zones with the best offensive capabilities (for brutes and soldiers)

The other roles have AOE with bad damage, horrible range, or a weak condition caused.

I submit for your consideration Fire Storm. Top damage AOE, same range as the longest range wizard AOEs, plus it leaves a damaging zone that can be sustained, AND it only affects enemies. And it's a level 19 cleric daily.