• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Role-Playing vs. Alignment Conflict

Let's say X = the cumulative weight of actions shifting the character away from Good. Let's say Y = the character's heroic actions that would shift them back. As long as X < Y, it makes more sense to make the character's alignment stay LG than to flip it back and forth according to how many goblins he's encountered.

Killing captured goblins is expedient... neither good nor evil. Self-interested. So long as the character's actions range between neutral and good, and the character displays a firm commitment to good, the character is good.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Sejs said:
Elven paladin hates Drow.

Priest of Pelor hates the undead.

Celestial hates Demons and Devils.

That may indeed be the case, but it's hardly an ideal. IMO, the highest form of good is to thwart the plans of evil, and perhaps even destroy evil, if necessary, without hating evil creatures. In other words (and stepping dangerously close to real-world religious philosophy), "Hate the sin, not the sinner".

Back to the original question. Is the character's hatred of goblins a "quirk" in an otherwise Lawful Good personality? Does he act Lawful Good in all other circumstances (when not confronted by goblins)? If so, he may be able to retain his Lawful Good alignment. However, killing helpless creatures (regardless of alignment) is usually an evil act, and if he does it too often, or starts broadening his "hate" to include orcs, kobolds, gnolls, ogres, etc, his alignment should probably start shifting to LN.

Unless you decide otherwise, of course.
 

It's not universal that hate is an evil emotion. Hate is not always destructive. Unwavering anger toward evil is admirable in many ethos.
 

The Player Character has clearly not acted Lawful-good, by slaying four goblins. A Lawful-good character's alignment supercedes his hate of any race; it must, or else his alignment is not good, his hate of other races so strong, that he is something else, maybe Neutral or Evil.

You could say that this single action is not according to his alignment and then tell the player that his PC's alignment now changes. Alternatively, consider this action as out-of-character. However, if the PC continues acting "evil", you would then change his alignment. In both cases you change the alignment one step, from Lawful-good, to Neutral Good and then all the way down to true Neutral, (if not lower), as time goes on.

This is perfectly according to the rules and acceptable within the rules.
 

Sejs said:
Elven paladin hates Drow.

Priest of Pelor hates the undead.

Celestial hates Demons and Devils.

Do they actually "Hate" or acknowledge that they are enemies? I could see fiends hating the celestials but while the celestial may war on fiends it doesn't necessarily hate them. I served in the military and was stationed in South Korea. When I went on a tour of the DMZ I saw members of the North Korean army. I knew that they were my enemy and that I may be called upon to war on them if they attacked but I didn't "hate" them any more than someone I might pass on the street.
 

Calico_Jack73 said:
Do they actually "Hate" or acknowledge that they are enemies? I could see fiends hating the celestials but while the celestial may war on fiends it doesn't necessarily hate them. I served in the military and was stationed in South Korea. When I went on a tour of the DMZ I saw members of the North Korean army. I knew that they were my enemy and that I may be called upon to war on them if they attacked but I didn't "hate" them any more than someone I might pass on the street.

Hate is a word thrown out too offen much like love, there are three kinds, love of an item (I love cheeseburgers), love of family (I love my brother), and love as a passion (I LOVE you, you know what I mean ;) ). Just saying you hate someone does not describe the feeling. :)
 

Sheverash

I am fairly certain that any cleric or Paladin of Shevarash HATES HATES HATES drow and will Kill them on site unless perhaps they are , or are travelling with the one notable exception Drizz't Do'urden.
 

Sejs said:
*nod* What Swrushing said.

Anyway, look at it from the character's perspective: as far as the dwarf is concerned, Goblins are wicked, deceitful, evil, baby stealing, well poisoning monsters and the only reward you'd get out of one for freeing it would be a knife between the shoulders as soon as your back is turned. Just because someone chained a couple up doens't make them innocent all of a sudden. It just makes them helpless - not something you'd laud about in tales of heroic battle, but putting the little buggers down is still a good thing to do. Means they won't go stealing someone's baby or poisoning some town well later on down the line.


Just as an example, mind you - I've got no idea what the dwarf's player actually thinks on the matter.

I don't think "as far as the dwarf is concerned" is good enough. As far as the japanese were conerned, Koreans were a lesser people, but that doesn't allow them to be considered 'good' while taking comfort women. At least one more question needs to be asked : "Is he right?" and if the answer is no, then a second question must be asked: "what has he done to avoid learning he is wrong?"

the first question is simple, and has been brought up before. how does the DM define goblins in his campaign, either through out of campaign conversations or campaign events? If the DM has made it clear that "no mortal races are inherently evil, though many have warred for a long time" or if the party is aware the goblin tribes trade with cityfolk, or other adventuring parties use goblin porters or followers, etc, then what the dwarf thinks is untrue. It is prejudice, and racism, painting a people in a way they are not. Merely thinking something false doesn't make your actions good just because they are consistant with your beliefs. If allignment is a cosmic balance sheet and magical marking as well as a personality trait, this distinction becomes even more vital, as the dwarf may go through life honestly believing himself a good person and then have a both unpleasant and confuing encounter with the groups new paladin. :eek:

Then the second question comes in. This one is a little more complicated and mildly philosophical. There is nothing unusual about a young person who has been exposed to only a very narrow group of people in his life coming to adulthood with a couple of flat out wrong ideas about other groups of people. if the dwarf was fresh to adventuring and the wider world and had spent his whole life up to that point in an environment where those feelings about goblins were ubiquitous and no chances to disprove them ever arose, his prejudice has (Imho) no bearing on his allignment. But what he does when confronted with evidence against these beliefs matters quite a bit. If his beliefs are wrong and he has had ample oppertunity to understand that but instead has on each occasion rejected the new information as lies, propaganda, stupid, irrelevant and "just wrong, you've been taken in by them", and burried his head in the sand as it were to avoid changing his beliefs, he has switched from an involuntry prejudice to a willful bigotry. And in my opinion, that sort of of deliberately defended and self perpetuated bigotry IS incompatable with a good allignment, no matter how rarely it has a chance to be demonstrated.

Obviously judgement of these factors, as has been mentioned, depends on the DMs decisions about his game world, and how well he has communicated those facts to his players. But even with a complete lack of information, the player should know that it is not his role to decide the personalities of anyone but his own PC, and certainly not an entire race - thus "as far as he's concerned" would never be taken as anything but a statement of PC prejudice by me, were I adjucating the situation. If he wants mindless hate to still be Good, he damn well better ask his DM about the issue first. :(

Kahuna Burger
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top