Roleplaying? Yeah right!

[utopia27]

crime and punishment

For example, I once tried to spice things up by having 3 guards try to bribe the powergamer's PC into paying them a fee so they won't arrest him for "murdering" an Ettin in Sigil. I roleplayed these guards as the typical smug loser types. I was thinking the player would start talking smack to show he's not afraid of them. This could have been a fun opportunity for fist fighting/wrestling or some humorous exchange of harsh words. Instead...because it's a game....the player instantly attacks the 3 guards lethally without saying a word. These guards didn't even have weapons drawn. They also tried grapplying him rather than attacking lethally (I was trying to show they weren't the type of threat that needed to be killed). But it didn't matter to the player. He slaughtered them and fled. He would say it's ok to do that because he's a "chaotic" good cleric :\

That's pretty much the routine. No need to make a character interesting unless it directly benefits your character's mechanical advancement.

My 7-year-old did something like this. He and his party were (somewhat inadvertantly) terrorizing a border hamlet. When the border guard (hardened veterans of the goblin marches) returned from patrol to find everyone shuttered in, and a party of vagabonds howling in the center of town, beating down doors, and rummaging through the blacksmith's shop, well... the guard captain demanded surrender, shot, then asked questions (in that order).

So my 7-year-old decided to fight back, and went and killed himself a couple of folk before the border guard cudgeled him into unconscousness. His buddy (the 12-year-old, "should know better than that", oldest in the group) did much the same. Now the two 9-year-old young ladies (cleric and druidess) had tried to parlay with the slightly-paranoid folk of the border village. Once the guard captain ordered them to surrender (and they noticed the dozen or so grim-looking archers waving fletched pointy death at them) poked their hands in the air and got captured. Even when the "boys" got the shooting started, they mainly stayed out of the way, and tried to heal the wounded.


[[ NOTE: "the boys" and "the girls" are two thirds of my kids' ongoing D&D game. the other two are a boy and girl of intermediate age, who acted intermediately, with intermediate consequences. Along with the "foil of god" NPC. The intermediate actors were actually the elf MU/thief and fighter/scout NPC - they tried to break for the hills, and rapped some folks gently on the head (specifically non-lethally) before being cornered. The other PC - a rough-and-tumble but very honorable fighter (and sometime city guard), played by the _other_ 7-year-old guy in the group, tried to sneak up on the guard captain, but got dropped by a couple arrows and a crit'ed sling stone of impact....]]

Consequence: the "rowdy boys" spent the next week in jail on bread and water, in their underpants, with no shower and one pot for them to share as a toilet. They got marched in to meet the justice to be dispatched by the local cleric, the guard captain. Oh - and mysteriously [because the girls chatted...] the prince who has been their patron got pulled into the sentencing as well - using their own "scrying pan" (OK, sometimes I can't resist a pun). Miseries and humiliation _galore_. And rubbed in. The "boys" were sentenced to a geas'd quest, apologies to all involved (including the children of the guards that were killed, the guards themselves (now 'raise'ed), their families, the squad commander, the guard captain, and their prince), compensation for the cost of the 'raise dead' spell, and restitution to the guards.

Consequence: the "girls", on the other hand, spent the first night at the guard captain's house. They were obviously in detention, but had all their clothes, decent food, hot tea, and a warm bed. The next morning they had a somewhat stressful, but very straightforward interview with the guard captain and the local cleric. It didn't hurt a bit that the local cleric was an elf worshipper of Corellan Loreithian, and the "girls" are elf cleric and druid themselves - though less specifically devoted to Corellan (generic protection/good and nature - we're builiding up towards pantheons as the _players_ can wrap their head around it...). Why did the "boys" spend a week in jail? Because the town sent "the girls" off (with a "bodyguard") to a nearby gnome village to pawn several of the "boys" magic items (treasured but not "THE FAVORITE" items) for gold and spell components (big diamonds, as I recall). The "girls" went because they had the ebony fly (? figurine of wonderous power - big nasty bug that can transport distances by flying ?) that could transport them in a timely manner. And they were allowed to exercise their own judgement (and skills) to determine how much monetary pain "the boys" should suffer.

Result - law and order got a whole 'nother level of respect. My son will _never_ forget that he lost his wand of lightning bolts because he failed to honor the local codes of conduct. Oh - and the smelly dungeon in their skivvies made something of an impression as well.

I actually run my kids' game as a little bit of a morality play - with very clear black and white. I use it as a way to let them run amok and cap some five-0 - and suffer significant consequences, even when the setting allows "it got all better'd". I let the kids walk a mile as a town guard, meet the children of the border guard they killed (and yes, get spit on). I let them meet the goblin lieutenant (ranger) whose companion wolf they killed a long, long time ago. And now he's all growed up and scary-like, with a grudge almost as big as his (unnaturally for a goblin) HUGE shoulders.

The kids in my game have learned about tipping - tipping waitresses, tipping maid service at an inn. They've learned why tipping the nice customs officer will get you in trouble - though they're still a little hazy on the difference between a tip and a bribe.

The kids have seen the GM hand out a 100xp award on the spot, because someone remembered to complete a side plot. And they've been hustled out of town because another character (one of "the boys") willfully evaded the responsibilities of his royal house (well... dragonmarked...).

It's all about the nudges and pushes, incentives and disincentives. Set the tone, generate (and actively encourage) the opportunities, and even a semi-literate 7-year-old barbarian will catch on.

 

[pawsplay]

For example, I once tried to spice things up by having 3 guards try to bribe the powergamer's PC into paying them a fee so they won't arrest him for "murdering" an Ettin in Sigil. I roleplayed these guards as the typical smug loser types. I was thinking the player would start talking smack to show he's not afraid of them. This could have been a fun opportunity for fist fighting/wrestling or some humorous exchange of harsh words. Instead...because it's a game....the player instantly attacks the 3 guards lethally without saying a word. These guards didn't even have weapons drawn. They also tried grapplying him rather than attacking lethally (I was trying to show they weren't the type of threat that needed to be killed). But it didn't matter to the player. He slaughtered them and fled. He would say it's ok to do that because he's a "chaotic" good cleric :\

Why, exactly, would a powerful spellcaster probably not guily of actual wrongdoing consent to being arrested by untrustworthy racketeers? I'm going to have to side with the CG (and not in jail) cleric here.

Roleplaying is not the same as spending time talking with jackasses. Don't we do enough of that in real life? Adventurers are extremely powerful individuals. Acting with initiative and prudence is good roleplaying, too. Why shouldn't a player portray his character as a professional?

 

[hong]

Why, exactly, would a powerful spellcaster probably not guily of actual wrongdoing consent to being arrested by untrustworthy racketeers? I'm going to have to side with the CG (and not in jail) cleric here.

The issue is not "consent to being arrested". The issue is "how to hand the bad guys their asses in an entertaining manner".

Showboating, IOW.

 

[Drowbane]

Some of us can maximize a character and at the same time role play a suave rogue or a daring swashbuckler. I resent the comments that seem to stick people in one of two camps...

Word, yo!

 

[Pbartender]

Some of us can maximize a character and at the same time role play a suave rogue or a daring swashbuckler. I resent the comments that seem to stick people in one of two camps:

Quoted. For. Truth.

Decent rolplaying and statistically effective characters are not mutually exclusive.


For me, at least, roleplaying is all about effecting a consistant attitude with your particular character and then making decisions based on that attitude.

To give a recent example of roleplaying working hand-in-hand with power gaming: In my wife's Red Hand of Doom campaign, I'm playing a Knight. He's a bit stuffy, but he's honorable and he takes great care of the men under his command. At the moment, that's the rest of the adventuring party. One very big part of his personality is that he always leads from the front and never leaves one of his men behind -- he's always the last one out of a battle. Thus far, there's been a few situations where, against my better judgement as a player, I had him stubbornly hold the line against greater odds, Boromir fashion, in order to give his near-dead comrades time to retreat. Once, it was a very close call and he nearly died to ensure his allies' safety... Fortunately, I'm a better powergamer than whoever Boromir's player happened to be, and my steadfast Knight had the hit points and armor class to suck up the beating my wife gave him and still get away once everyone else had fled.

 

[Testament]

I hate powergamers.

Let me rephrase that.

I hate carrot cake. I hate Euro disco. I hate liver. But I can understand that other people like these things, and their opinions are just as valid as mine.

I simply don't tolerate powergamers, on the other hand. I would rather not play at all than have to play with them. I won't subject my players, who love to spend entire sessions just interacting with NPCs and each other in-character, to the juvenile power fantasies and non-existent social skills of the average powergamer.

I sympathize with any DM who find himself stuck with powergamers in his group. My personal advice is to expel the offending player(s), and run the game you like. You'll be amazed at who you can get to play in your game (such as girls!) once the powergamers are no longer ruining the experience at the table by refusing to roleplay. If the powergamers just want to pretend to have kewl powers so they can simply kill things, they should be directed to World of Warcraft. There they won't have to worry about icky, adult things like characterization and story.

Some kinds of "Fun" really are Bad and Wrong.

Am I the only one who finds this attitude sickening and insulting? You've got a group who enjoys the same style of play as you, good for you. Some people don't want that, and are content to smash down the door and kill things, that's their perogative. They sure as hell don't deserve this kind of attitude that gives rise to so many jokes about the Forge or Mark Rein SPLAT Hagen. I'm curious as to what you think of GMs who enjoy and run that sort of game, do they deserve the same level of contempt, and should be exiled to WoW?

And in Oryan's case, it seems pretty obvious to me that he and his group are a less than optimal fit. Honestly, I'd start searching for a new group if that's at all possible. That, or throw someone else behind the screen and start doing your own RP from the player side of the table as a way of influencing them if you can.

 

[DragonLancer]

Am I the only one who finds this attitude sickening and insulting? You've got a group who enjoys the same style of play as you, good for you. Some people don't want that, and are content to smash down the door and kill things, that's their perogative. They sure as hell don't deserve this kind of attitude that gives rise to so many jokes about the Forge or Mark Rein SPLAT Hagen. I'm curious as to what you think of GMs who enjoy and run that sort of game, do they deserve the same level of contempt, and should be exiled to WoW?

Being the kick in the door and kill the monster style of play is fine if everyone including the DM wants to play that way. In the OP's case, it seems that the other players don't want that. You can call it sickening and insulting but he's the odd one out and should be either fitting in to how the majority plays or finding another group IMO.

I don't allow powergamers (whether good or bad) in my groups because it flies in the face of how I and the rest of my players like to play.

 

[wayne62682]

First of all, I am a powergamer; I admit it. I come up with a concept that I like, and then I spend time poring over sourcebooks looking for feats/spells/whatever that helps out my concept and makes me good at it. I plan "builds" from 1-20th level, although I allow myself a tiny bit of leeway to change things (never much though. Most of it is set in stone). I do not speak in a funny accent when I role-play, and I don't enjoy role-playing every minuscule conversation with barmaids and blacksmiths. I only enjoy role-playing in situations that are interesting.

That said, however, this discussion doesn't seem to be about powergaming vs. role-playing. The real discussion seems to be "What is roleplaying". Obviously, "role-playing" means different things to different people. In the OP's case, the player in question probably thought he WAS role-playing. The OP, used to more, does not. I can see where the player is coming from, as that's the definition of role-playing that I usually use, and how I "role-play" my characters.

The solution is to talk with the player and make some suggestions to improve role-playing. Don't say it as though "You aren't role-playing, and I want you to start" but more along the lines of "I like what you're doing, you can improve it by doing xyz". But don't dismiss the notion that because someone is a powergamer, they can't role-play. That's invoking a well-known fallacy.

I sympathize with any DM who find himself stuck with powergamers in his group. My personal advice is to expel the offending player(s), and run the game you like. You'll be amazed at who you can get to play in your game (such as girls!) once the powergamers are no longer ruining the experience at the table by refusing to roleplay. If the powergamers just want to pretend to have kewl powers so they can simply kill things, they should be directed to World of Warcraft. There they won't have to worry about icky, adult things like characterization and story.

Some kinds of "Fun" really are Bad and Wrong.

This post I find offensive. A style that you don't agree with isn't wrong. Powergamer isn't badwrongfun no more than doing amateur theater and talking in a different accent for every NPC the party meets is badwrongfun. To dismiss a playstyle as nonsense and make a comment that all powergamers shouldn't play D&D but stick to WoW is, quite frankly, vulgar and rude, and has no place here.

 

[Psion]

I think there is a difference between "playing to kick down the door and use rules knowledge to defeat the bad guy" and "doing that at the expense of the rest of the group."

But then, I'd say that's just about as objectionable as the player who insists on yammering with every shopkeep when the rest of the group is just wanting to get to the action.

In short, I think it's fair to say when you make/play a character who is a siphon on all the other players' fun, that's BadWrongFun. But that's not necessarily a "power gamer". It could also be a "drama queen".

 

[Fifth Element]

Being the kick in the door and kill the monster style of play is fine if everyone including the DM wants to play that way. In the OP's case, it seems that the other players don't want that. You can call it sickening and insulting but he's the odd one out and should be either fitting in to how the majority plays or finding another group IMO.

Careful. Testament was not calling the OP's comments sickening and insulting, but Clavis' comments that there is absolutely certain types of fun that are wrong.

The OP has an issue with his players' playstyle differing from his own. Clavis was arguing that the players' playstyle is inherently wrong. See the difference?