D&D 5E Rolled character stats higher than point buy?

[FormerlyHemlock]

I did a quick comparison (my game got canceled) with my example characters. Not a complete comparison because I ignored feats and stat bumps from leveling up.

So at the halfway-ish level of their career (level 10)

As 10th level wood elf archer
Super Dave:
Str +17
Dex +20
Con +18
Int +11
Wis +18
Cha +16

Athletics +3 (untrained)
Intimidation +7
Stealth +9
Survival +8

Attack: +11 Dmg: 1d8+5 (avg 9.5). Avg dmg/hit: 7.6
Hit Points: 95
AC (before armor): 15

Wimpy Kid:
Str +7
Dex +16
Con +11
Int +8
Wis +10
Cha +5

Athletics -2 (untrained)
Intimidation -1
Stealth +5
Survival +2

Attack: +7 Dmg: 1d8+3 (avg dmg 7.5). Avg dmg/hit: 4.9
Hit Points: 55
AC (before armor): 13

So in combat, Super Dave is going to last twice as long as Wimpy Kid between having 15% better armor and 73% better HP. Super Dave is also going to average around 60% more damage.

Out of combat? I'm not even going to bother with percentages. Suffice to say Super Dave is good at his proficient skills and pretty good at everything he's not proficient in. Wimpy? Not even particularly good in his proficient skills.

One is a hero, the other is ... not. Could you roleplay Wimpy Dave and have fun? I'll leave that up to you. But if I were playing a game where I was playing Wimpy, I would feel like the sidekick. And not the cool-snappy-comeback sidekick. The "do I have to take him with me mom?" sidekick.

In addition, Wimpy is just not going to have that many viable options. He's adequate at one thing - shooting arrows - but can't take a hit and is pretty useless outside of combat to boot. If I had envisioned playing a stealthy woodland scout/spy sneaking up on the bad guys and intimidating them to get them to talk I'm SOL.

Super Dave could also be a paragon of excellence in just about any class. I would even go so far as to state that his stats are too good for my tastes.

So go ahead, flame me with how you would just love to play Wimpy and how you would bask in the glory of that one time you rolled a 20 and Super Dave rolled a 1. I think the majority (probably the vast majority) of people would disagree.

How in the world is Super Dave getting +17 to +20 to all his rolls? Even if he had Expertise in everything that would still only be +13 or so. Is this another case where you're actually talking about a game that isn't really 5E?

I've been talking about 5E. If you're talking about some other game I don't have much to say unless it's AD&D, GURPS, MERP, or Shadowrun.

 

[Oofta]

How in the world is Super Dave getting +17 to +20 to all his rolls? Even if he had Expertise in everything that would still only be +13 or so. Is this another case where you're actually talking about a game that isn't really 5E?

I've been talking about 5E. If you're talking about some other game I don't have much to say unless it's AD&D, GURPS, MERP, or Shadowrun.

I was copying from a spreadsheet I use for characters.

Super Dave has a 20 dex.

I was going from my sample rolls that my program spit out
Rolls:
11, 17, 16, 17, 18, 18
14, 9, 5, 8, 7, 11

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I was copying from a spreadsheet I use for characters.

Super Dave has a 20 dex.

I was going from my sample rolls that my program spit out
Rolls:
11, 17, 16, 17, 18, 18
14, 9, 5, 8, 7, 11

Oh, okay. So we're on the same page after all, then. That's good.

Granted that Wimpy Kid is redundant if Super Dave is in the party--they both provide the exact same capabilities, but Super Dave does it better. But would Super Dave really not want Sybil around? If so, why?

 

[Oofta]

Oh, okay. So we're on the same page after all, then. That's good.

Granted that Wimpy Kid is redundant if Super Dave is in the party--they both provide the exact same capabilities, but Super Dave does it better. But would Super Dave really not want Sybil around? If so, why?

Well, obviously Super Dave would probably run a Super Paladin or a Super melee evangelical Cleric or some such. After all, he can be Super <insert any class>.

The point is that in a head-to-head comparison, it's not a close competition. Wimpy Kid does not, and cannot, contribute as much in or out of combat.

It also makes it a pain for the DM. After all, a reasonable challenge for Super Dave is going to take out Wimpy Kid with ease.

 

[Zardnaar]

We used the default array at 1st. We went with 4d6 drop the lowest because.

1. Point buy gets boring and predictable. With no wizard 8 intelligence turns up a lot.
2. Yes we play the rubbish as well. I have seen 1 PC with 3 +1 modifiers and melee cleric with 12 strength.
3. PCs tone down the min maxing with higher stats and often take "fun" feats instead of stat buffs and the usual suspects.
4. Some builds are more viable if you roll well. MAD type classes and concepts. TPK to a party of Gnolls (no they did not suicide the PCs, dice are a bitch on occasion).
5. I used 4d6 drop the lowest in AD&D. Good enough back then good enough now,

My next PC (if the dice rolls back it up) is going to be a swarmy elven Roge who is usually an NPC and I want high charisma and intelligence without feeling like I am being punished for it so hopefully lots of scores in the 14ish range. Gem just will not cut it with the default array. if I roll bad I will play another concept or moon druid.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Well, obviously Super Dave would probably run a Super Paladin or a Super melee evangelical Cleric or some such. After all, he can be Super <insert any class>.

The point is that in a head-to-head comparison, it's not a close competition. Wimpy Kid does not, and cannot, contribute as much in or out of combat.

It also makes it a pain for the DM. After all, a reasonable challenge for Super Dave is going to take out Wimpy Kid with ease.

Super Dave can be a Super < insert any class > but not a Super < insert every class >. He'll probably pick a class that doesn't work without being MAD like a Monklock, because wasting all those 18s on a Moon Druid would be a sad waste. But that doesn't mean you don't want a Moon Druid in the party. On the contrary!

So Super Dave, Sybil (same stats as Wimpy Kid but better-designed), and two of their buddies go on an adventure. They're all going to be valuable to the party and they're all going to have fun.

If you want to roll up four sets of stats I'd be glad to design a party of four for those stats and show you how all of the PCs are valuable.

 

[Maxperson]

[EDIT: clarified my post. Sorry it's so long!]

I did a quick comparison (my game got canceled) with my example characters. Not a complete comparison because I ignored feats and stat bumps from leveling up.

I used numbers from a program I wrote to roll random characters, this is an example of 2 characters from the same 6 person "group".
11, 17, 16, 17, 18, 18
14, 9, 5, 8, 7, 11



So if I build two characters at the halfway-ish level of their career (level 10)

As 10th level wood elf archer
Super Dave:
Str 17
Dex 20
Con 18
Int 11
Wis 18
Cha 16

Athletics +3 (untrained)
Intimidation +7
Stealth +9
Survival +8

Attack: +11 Dmg: 1d8+5 (avg 9.5). Avg dmg/hit: 7.6
Hit Points: 95
AC (before armor): 15

Wimpy Kid:
Str 7
Dex 16
Con 11
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 5

Athletics -2 (untrained)
Intimidation -1
Stealth +5
Survival +2

Attack: +7 Dmg: 1d8+3 (avg dmg 7.5). Avg dmg/hit: 4.9
Hit Points: 55
AC (before armor): 13

So in combat, Super Dave is going to last twice as long as Wimpy Kid between having 15% better armor and 73% better HP. Super Dave is also going to average around 60% more damage.

Out of combat? I'm not even going to bother with percentages. Suffice to say Super Dave is good at his proficient skills and pretty good at everything he's not proficient in. Wimpy? Not even particularly good in his proficient skills.

One is a hero, the other is ... not. Could you roleplay Wimpy Dave and have fun? I'll leave that up to you. But if I were playing a game where I was playing Wimpy, I would feel like the sidekick. And not the cool-snappy-comeback sidekick. The "do I have to take him with me mom?" sidekick.

In addition, Wimpy is just not going to have that many viable options. He's adequate at one thing - shooting arrows - but can't take a hit and is pretty useless outside of combat to boot. If I had envisioned playing a stealthy woodland scout/spy sneaking up on the bad guys and intimidating them to get them to talk I'm SOL.

Super Dave could also be a paragon of excellence in just about any class. I would even go so far as to state that his stats are too good for my tastes.

So go ahead, flame me with how you would just love to play Wimpy and how you would bask in the glory of that one time you rolled a 20 and Super Dave rolled a 1. I think the majority (probably the vast majority) of people would disagree.

Your comparison is flawed. Groups are usually composed of different class types and they vary up the skills to cover more ground. You shouldn't be comparing two archers with the same skills. You should be comparing an archer with some other class and different skills.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

BTW, as an example: I rolled up a set of five stats on BrockJones.com. They look fine for me. Just to prove that it's not a fluke, I rolled up another. Both sets are below. I could do fine with either.

[B]#1
[/B]10    12    16    16    11    8
12    10    12    14    17    5
12    15    17    13    6    16
9    11    12    15    13    13
11    14    11    17    16    11

[B]#2
[/B]13    13    12    11    16    9
9    8    14    13    10    16
13    17    13    15    11    16
11    7    13    13    8    9
10    17    11    13    11    13

 

[Oofta]

Your comparison is flawed. Groups are usually composed of different class types and they vary up the skills to cover more ground. You shouldn't be comparing two archers with the same skills. You should be comparing an archer with some other class and different skills.

Why would I compare apples and oranges?

By comparing apples and apples I've shown that Wimpy is half as effective at filling the combat roll as Super Dave. In addition, Wimpy doesn't hold a candle to Super Dave in the out of combat rolls. Mixing up what role in the party the character fills isn't going to change anything - Super Dave will always be significantly better at overcoming obstacles in the game in or out of combat.

I would not like that, I've had discussions about this with multiple groups and never found anyone in real life that would like it.

If you're ok with it, all I can do is quote The Dude. That's just, like your opinion man.

 

[FrogReaver]

I suppose it should be asked do you make a character and then roll stats or roll stats and then Make a character? One is much easier than the other.