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D&D 5E Rolled character stats higher than point buy?

MechaPilot

Explorer
Interesting analogy. I can see that. Starting from the stats and building upward feels more, to me, like linear programming or constraint solving. Or to use an artistic metaphor, it's less like writing literature or poetry and more like sculpting: you chip away at the rock (stat array) until you reveal the thing that's hiding inside of them.

I could definitely see a stats-first approach being like programming.


If I were creating characters like literature or poetry I would probably hate point buy and random rolls equally. I'd want to just pick stats as they feel appropriate to the character. That's what I usually do as a DM, after all. Why should my process change just because it's a PC?

The stat generation is fairly generous (regardless of whether you're using the array, point buy, 4d6 drop the lowest, or the 24d6 and assign three results to each stat method that I allow), so I usually never have a problem with being able to create the character that I have in mind from a stat perspective. It's been my experience that I usually have higher stats than I need for most concepts, and that most DMs don't mind letting you throw away unused points or assigning stats smaller than what you rolled. Of course, I've also encountered few concepts that require throwing away points or assigning numbers smaller than what's been rolled, so that helps too.

I find that class constraints get in the way much more often than stat generation, but that's one of the downsides of a class-based system.
 

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Arial Black

Adventurer
There's a few reasons that probably interact with each other a bit.

#1: Math.
Rolled stats (4d6 drop the lowest) does yield a higher average than point buy.

#2: Psychology.
People tend to post things that reflect well on themselves and avoid posting things that reflect poorly. Thus, you're far more likely to see what amounts to "hey, look how lucky I am" than you are to see what amounts to "lol, look at this thing that sucks." That's not to say that self-deprecation isn't a thing, but it's usually a means of ingratiating oneself to an audience than it is a general communication strategy.

#3: DM Policy.
Most of the DMs who I've played with as a player, and most of the DMs who I've spoken to as a fellow DM, will allow a reroll if the stats end up ranging from profoundly bad to average in every regard.

#4: Survival & Attachment.
Generally speaking, genuine attachment to a character takes time. In order for that period of time to elapse, the character must survive that long. Depending on what stats you rolled poorly on, a character may not have much survivability. This is more of an issue where stats are forced to be rolled in order, but it can occur where a player makes poor assignment choices.

For #3, a total re-roll for a poor set of rolls was not just the judgement call of a poor DM, it was part of the rolling rules for some variations of D&D. It could be described as 'fudging' if you want, but re-rolling poor sets of rolls is, like I've said before, a feature of rolling, not a bug!

Rolling, with all the ways to mitigate poor rolls, is closer to the ideal of partly controlled/partly random character creation, and neither un-mitigated rolling nor point-buy do the job.

There's also been some debate about whether to roll first then decide what kind of PC to create, or to decide first then hope you roll stats that support that concept (or use point-buy). Point-buy is obviously geared toward the latter, but D&D has, from its infancy, expected the former.

It has to be said that 'roll first, then decide' reflects real life better. Most people are what they are. They can't just decide to be more intelligent! Point-buy does allow this; usually by voluntarily making themselves weaker(!), but in real life you are what you are and then have to decide what to do with your life, ideally playing to your strengths.

Sure, you might have pushy parents who expect you to work down the mines like my father and his father before him, even though you have the soul of a poet.

"How old are your children?"

"The doctor's three and the lawyer's five."

So, a player staring at a set of rolls he just made (the second set actually; the first set was so poor that the DM let him roll a new set, just like it says to in the PHB of the edition you're playing) has to decide what class to be given those rolls. This reflects real life quite well.

Actually, my main group designs the character before the stats are known. So, we must use point-buy, right? How else can we be certain to get appropriate stats for the concept?

No, we never use point-buy. We just choose our stats; no rolling, no point-buy. That's how to narratively create a PC.
 

delericho

Legend
Why is it that rolled character stats are normally always higher than a character created through point buy? I pretty much never see someone post a rolled character with stats worse than point buy. Does anyone know why?

Partly, it's built in: the average set of rolled stats really is slightly better than the standard point buy. And that's a good thing, since there's a trade-off there: you don't get to optimise your stats exactly as you want them.

But partly it's because people tend not to generate 'pure' rolled stats: they'll either persuade their DM to use a more generous method than standard, or they'll make sad eyes at the DM until he allows them to reroll, or they'll suicide a 'bad' character, or they'll simply cheat.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
ould I have fun with Wimpy Kid? Sure. Stats don't make the character. Would I want to play Wimpy Kid if Super Dave were also in the party? No.

And that's where this all breaks down on philosophical differences. If I can have fun with Wimpy Kid, and I can, nothing about Super Dave that can change that. His stats are not relevant to my fun, so they just don't matter.
 

And that's where this all breaks down on philosophical differences. If I can have fun with Wimpy Kid, and I can, nothing about Super Dave that can change that. His stats are not relevant to my fun, so they just don't matter.

If you choose to play wimpy kid, that's your choice. If the DM says I have to play wimpy kid because that's what I rolled and thems the breaks, it's not my choice.

You could say I chose to roll stats and I choose to abide by the DM's rules, but if those were the rules I would have chosen not to game instead, and that's a choice I'd prefer not to have to make.

Also, choosing to play wimpy kid does not make someone a better roleplayer, and not wanting to play wimpy kid doesn't make you a worse one.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If you choose to play wimpy kid, that's your choice. If the DM says I have to play wimpy kid because that's what I rolled and thems the breaks, it's not my choice.

You could say I chose to roll stats and I choose to abide by the DM's rules, but if those were the rules I would have chosen not to game instead, and that's a choice I'd prefer not to have to make.

Which is fine. Not all games are for all people. I've turned down games before and I expect to turn them down in the future.

Also, choosing to play wimpy kid does not make someone a better roleplayer, and not wanting to play wimpy kid doesn't make you a worse one.

This isn't about better or worse roleplaying. It's no sweat off my back if you don't like to play Wimpy Kids. Everyone has different ways to have fun and this particular topic is very subjective. There isn't a personal right or wrong here.
 

Which is fine. Not all games are for all people. I've turned down games before and I expect to turn them down in the future.



This isn't about better or worse roleplaying. It's no sweat off my back if you don't like to play Wimpy Kids. Everyone has different ways to have fun and this particular topic is very subjective. There isn't a personal right or wrong here.

What is the purpose of this thread then?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
What is the purpose of this thread then?

Discussion, like every thread.

I don't have to want to force you to conform to my way or call you bad for not doing what I do in order to have an interesting conversation. Seeing the different views is often interesting.

As an example, before this thread I placed people into two camps. Those who will have fun playing wimpy kids and those who won't. Oofta opened up awareness of a third camp of, "People who will have fun playing wimpy kids only if everyone else is wimpy, too."
 

Discussion, like every thread.

I don't have to want to force you to conform to my way or call you bad for not doing what I do in order to have an interesting conversation. Seeing the different views is often interesting.

As an example, before this thread I placed people into two camps. Those who will have fun playing wimpy kids and those who won't. Oofta opened up awareness of a third camp of, "People who will have fun playing wimpy kids only if everyone else is wimpy, too."

This thread has made it clear that there are people who look down on people who won't be happy playing with low stats, or playing lower stats than somebody else at the table.
 

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