D&D 5E Rolled character stats higher than point buy?

As a point of reference for the OP these are from the 1e AD&D DMG....

Method I:
All scores are recorded and arranged in the order the player desires. 4d6 are rolled, and the lowest die (or one of the lower) is discarded.
Method II:
All scores are recorded and arranged as in Method I. 3d6 are rolled 12 times and the highest 6 scores are retained.
Method 111:
Scores rolled are according to each ability category, in order, STRENGTH, INTELLIGENCE, WISDOM, DEXTERITY, CONSTITUTION, CHARISMA. 3d6 are rolled 6 times for each ability, and the highest score in each category is retained for that category.
Method IV:
3d6 are rolled sufficient times to generate the 6 ability scores, in order, for 12 characters, The player then selects the single set of scores which he or she finds most desirable and these scores are noted on the character record sheet.



And 2e AD&D DMG....

Method I (3d6, In order):
This is the fastest and most straightforward. There are no decisions to make while rolling the dice, and dice rolling is kept to a minimum. Ability scores range from 3 to 18, but the majority fall in a range from 9 to 12. Typically, a character will have four scores in the average range, one below-average score, and one above-average score. A few lucky players will get several high scores and
a few unlucky ones will get just the opposite. Very high scores are rare, so character classes that require high scores (paladin, ranger, illusionist, druid, bard) are correspondingly rare. This makes characters who qualify for those classes very special indeed. The majority of the player characters will be fighters, clerics, mages, and thieves. Characters with exceptional ability scores will tend to stand out from their comrades.

Method I Disadvantages: First, some players may consider their characters to be hopelessly average. Second, the players don't get many choices. Using method I, only luck enables a player to get a character of a particular type, since he has no control over the dice. Most characters have little choice over which class they become: Only one or two options will be open to them. You might let players discard a character who is totally unsuitable and start over.

Method II (3d6 twice, keep desired score):
This method gives players better scores without introducing serious ability inflation. It also gives them more control over their characters. The average ability is still in the 9 to 12 range, and players can manipulate their results to bring the characters they create closer to the ideal characters they imagine. Exceptional player characters are still rare, and unusual character classes are still uncommon, but few characters will have below-average scores.

Method II Disadvantages: Creating the character takes slightly longer because there are more dice to roll. Despite the improved choices, a character might still not be eligible for the race or class the player wants.

Method III (3d6, arranged to taste):
This method gives the players more choice when creating their characters yet still ensures that, overall, ability scores are not excessive. Bad characters are still possible, especially if a player has several poor rolls. The majority of characters have average abilities. Since players can arrange their scores however they want, it is easier to meet the requirements for an unusual class. Classes with exceptionally strict standards (the paladin in particular) are still uncommon.

Method III Disadvantages: This method is more time-consuming than I or II, especially if players try to "minimize/maximize" their choice of race and class. (To minimize/maximize, or min/max, is to examine every possibility for the greatest advantage.) Players may need to be encouraged to create the character they see in their imaginations, not the one that gains the most pluses on dice rolls.

Method IV (3d6 twice, arranged to taste):
This method has all the benefits of methods II and III. Few, if any, characters are likely to have poor scores. Most scores are above average. The individual score ranges are still not excessively high, so truly exceptional characters are still very rare. However, the majority of characters are significantly above the norm.

Method IV Disadvantages: This method tends to be quite slow. Players spend a lot of time comparing different number combinations with the requirements of different races and classes. New players easily can be overwhelmed by the large number of choices during this process.

Method V (4d6, drop lowest, arrange as desired):
Before choosing to use this method, think about how adventurers fit into the population as a whole. There are two schools of thought. One holds that adventurers are no different from everyone else (except for being a little more foolhardy, headstrong, or restless). The man or woman down the street could be an adventurer--all that's required is the desire to go out and be one. Therefore, adventurers should get no special bonuses on their ability rolls. The other school holds that adventurers are special people, a cut above the common crowd. If they weren't exceptional, they would be laborers and businessmen like everyone else. Player characters are heroes, so they should get bonuses on their ability rolls to lift them above the rabble. If you choose method V for creating player characters, then you agree with this second view and believe that adventurers should be better than everyone else. This method creates above-average characters. They won't be perfect, but the odds are that even their worst ability scores will be average or better. More scores push into the exceptional range (15 and greater). It is easy for a player to create a character of any class and race.

Method V Disadvantages: Like other methods that allow deliberate arrangement of ability scores, this one takes some time. It also creates a tendency toward "super" characters. Unless you have a considerable amount of experience as a DM, however, beware of extremely powerful characters. They are much more difficult to challenge and control than characters of moderate power. On the plus side, their chance for survival at lower levels is better than "ordinary" characters. (See "Super Characters," below, for more on this subject.) One last point about method V: High ability scores are less exciting under this method, since they are much more common.

Method VI (points plus dice):
This gives players more control over their characters than the other methods. A points system makes it quite likely that a player can get the character he wants--or at least the class and race. However, in doing so the player must make some serious compromises. It is unlikely that his dice are going to be good enough to make every score as high as he would like. In all likelihood, only one or two ability scores will be exceptional, and miserable dice rolling could lower this even further. The player must carefully weigh the pros and cons of his choices when creating the character.

Method VI Disadvantages: This method works best for experienced players. Players who are not familiar with the different character classes and races have a hard time making the necessary (and difficult) decisions.

So there has always been generous ways to create characters.
 

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This thread has made it clear that there are people who look down on people who won't be happy playing with low stats, or playing lower stats than somebody else at the table.

It has also made it clear that there are people who look down on people who don't use point buy/arrays to make all players equal. The existence of such narrow minded people doesn't really mean that the rest of us can't enjoy a good discussion.
 

It has also made it clear that there are people who look down on people who don't use point buy/arrays to make all players equal. The existence of such narrow minded people doesn't really mean that the rest of us can't enjoy a good discussion.

Looking down on and not wanting any part of something isn't the same thing. I don't see people who prefer point buy or arrays implying that those who don't are lesser roleplayers. I can't say the same about the reverse.
 

Looking down on and not wanting any part of something isn't the same thing. I don't see people who prefer point buy or arrays implying that those who don't are lesser roleplayers. I can't say the same about the reverse.

I'm not always the most politically correct person, but I hope people understand that I don't care how they run their game. I do not feel like the reverse is true.

We get examples of Sybil the character that does not work (unless I'm missing something a sorcerer in plate armor cannot cast spells unless they are proficient in the armor along with several other issues).

I'm told that Wimpy Kid is virtually identical to Super Dave because at 10th level they could have the same attack bonus, as if that's the only thing that matters about a character. Hit points, feats, saving throws, skill checks don't matter. The fact that I could not build the character I wanted to play with Wimpy Kid's stats is irrelevant.

What bothers me is the response I get when I express my opinion that I, and most people I've had this discussion with in person, would not be happy playing a character that has significantly inferior ability scores. Most people have a basic human sense of fairness, and violating that sense of fairness is detrimental to the game.

If you're playing Superman and I'm stuck playing The Tick's sidekick Arthur when I wanted to play Batman, yes that is a problem. Sue me for being human and admitting it.
 

Looking down on and not wanting any part of something isn't the same thing. I don't see people who prefer point buy or arrays implying that those who don't are lesser roleplayers. I can't say the same about the reverse.

You know, maybe it's easier to hear insults directed at you than insults that you are unintentionally offering. I've certainly felt at times that you were sneering at people who enjoy rolling stats, especially in the way you derogatively characterize people like Arial Black as "fudgers" or "cheaters" when they see re-rolling as a feature and not a bug. Maybe that was unintentional, or maybe it was just a defensive reaction against what you perceived as an attack against you; I don't know.
 

I'm not always the most politically correct person, but I hope people understand that I don't care how they run their game. I do not feel like the reverse is true.

We get examples of Sybil the character that does not work (unless I'm missing something a sorcerer in plate armor cannot cast spells unless they are proficient in the armor along with several other issues).

I'm told that Wimpy Kid is virtually identical to Super Dave because at 10th level they could have the same attack bonus, as if that's the only thing that matters about a character. Hit points, feats, saving throws, skill checks don't matter. The fact that I could not build the character I wanted to play with Wimpy Kid's stats is irrelevant.

What bothers me is the response I get when I express my opinion that I, and most people I've had this discussion with in person, would not be happy playing a character that has significantly inferior ability scores. Most people have a basic human sense of fairness, and violating that sense of fairness is detrimental to the game.

If you're playing Superman and I'm stuck playing The Tick's sidekick Arthur when I wanted to play Batman, yes that is a problem. Sue me for being human and admitting it.

Despite your first sentence, it sounds like you are indeed attacking my game, or why would you be attacking Sybil? She has heavy armor proficiency because it's a first-level feature of Life Clerics, so spellcasting in plate works just fine per PHB multiclassing rules. Can you point to even a single rule in the PHB that supports your public attack on her as a character that "does not work"? This is a very strong accusation.

You're not just airing your feelings here, you're calling me incompetent and a cheater. Let's see you back it up with facts.
 

Looking down on and not wanting any part of something isn't the same thing. I don't see people who prefer point buy or arrays implying that those who don't are lesser roleplayers. I can't say the same about the reverse.

There is no important difference. Someone who says you are not as good a roleplayer is functionally no different from someone who says you are not as good a DM if you don't use point buy or arrays, which is the implication of people who complain about PC equality in the games of others. Both are judgmental of others for not doing what they do.

Both sides are equally guilty.
 
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You know, maybe it's easier to hear insults directed at you than insults that you are unintentionally offering. I've certainly felt at times that you were sneering at people who enjoy rolling stats, especially in the way you derogatively characterize people like Arial Black as "fudgers" or "cheaters" when they see re-rolling as a feature and not a bug. Maybe that was unintentional, or maybe it was just a defensive reaction against what you perceived as an attack against you; I don't know.

Exactly. Both sides have done it, whether intentional or not.
 

Despite your first sentence, it sounds like you are indeed attacking my game, or why would you be attacking Sybil? She has heavy armor proficiency because it's a first-level feature of Life Clerics, so spellcasting in plate works just fine per PHB multiclassing rules. Can you point to even a single rule in the PHB that supports your public attack on her as a character that "does not work"? This is a very strong accusation.

You're not just airing your feelings here, you're calling me incompetent and a cheater. Let's see you back it up with facts.

I apologize. I've got some ... stressful ... stuff going on right now and I'm short a couple hours of sleep. Again.

However, saying that many people cheat or don't follow RAW when they roll dice is not an insult. It's simply stating the facts. Most people in my experience do not follow RAW when it comes to rolling. Whether it's with the official approval of the DM doesn't really matter much, it's still going from two systems that on average will give you roughly the same results to a system that is numerically superior. Your experience may differ.

I like point buy because it starts players out on even footing. In most cases rolling for stats using RAW means some players will have a significant advantage for character build options and better ability scores.

As far as the main complaints about point buy that it produces cookie-cutter PCs I haven't experienced that. If anything, point buy guarantees more random builds because you can build weird combos if you want. If you want to randomize characters, roll to see which array you want to use and then roll to see which number from the array goes where.
 


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