D&D 5E Rolled character stats higher than point buy?

[thecasualoblivion]

Okay. I didn't even know it was a thing back in 2e.

It was an official TSR thing, Living City set in Raven's Bluff in Forgotten Realms. I forget the exact system for the point buy, but I do remember the stats for my Fighter/Thief:

Str 18(10)
Dex 18
Con 11
Int 13
Wis 6
Cha 15

The point buy was one of the more generous ones I've seen.

 

[Maxperson]

It was an official TSR thing, Living City set in Raven's Bluff in Forgotten Realms. I forget the exact system for the point buy, but I do remember the stats for my Fighter/Thief:

Str 18(10)
Dex 18
Con 11
Int 13
Wis 6
Cha 15

The point buy was one of the more generous ones I've seen.

That's really cool. I'm not surprised it was so generous. You kinda have to be when you don't even start getting bonuses until 15-16 in a stat.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

There's nothing more frustrating than playing with a munchkin high-level uberwizard with tons of magical items and Int 20 who nevertheless plays like a moron. "Did you seriously just burn your 9th level spell slot on Chromatic Orb?" Moron.

It badly breaks my suspension of disbelief.

I find that people who cheat to roll high stats are generally not very good at the game. In 5E at least, that means they wind up less effective than players with brains, despite their cheating stats. Therefore, I don't feel threatened by them, I just feel annoyed when they fail to accomplish anything and or they get killed by mind flayers due to poor tactical positioning (getting hit by four mind blasts simultaneously) even while the low-level no-magic-items fighter I'm playing survives just fine because I saw this coming.

If cheating munchkins actually knew how to wargame they wouldn't be so disruptive. But, then they wouldn't be cheating munchkins.

</rant>

 

[Oofta]

A while back I wrote a program to randomly generate stats. Yes, it was a complete waste of time but I was curious. It rolled 4d6 drop lowest, and then compared groups of 6 to find the difference in power if they had done point buy.

What I found was that in the majority of "tables" there was a significant difference in ability scores. Using point buy as a yard stick, most tables had a difference of 30 points or more. That's a huge variation, if not in outright combat ability, in options for what people can play and how much they can contribute to out of combat skills.

An example (admittedly an extreme one). Although in the one campaign where we were forced to do die rolls, this is quite similar to what I experienced.

The lowest rolls in the group: 14, 9, 5, 8, 7, 11. This PC is very limited in options and is not going to exactly shine at ... well anything.

The highest rolls in the group: 11, 17, 16, 17, 18, 18. This PC has the option to play any class, has virtually no weaknesses, is a superstar in combat and out (from an ability perspective.

I would not want to play in a game with that big of a disparity. I don't think it's fair, most people would not want to play the character with the low stat.

Which is why most people cheat/house rule stats when they roll.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A while back I wrote a program to randomly generate stats...

An example (admittedly an extreme one). Although in the one campaign where we were forced to do die rolls, this is quite similar to what I experienced.

The lowest rolls in the group: 14, 9, 5, 8, 7, 11. This PC is very limited in options and is not going to exactly shine at ... well anything.

What are you talking about? That PC looks perfectly fine to me as a Sharpshooter, Moon Druid, or Sorlock. Sure he effectively can't be a MAD class like a monklock, but so what? When you say he isn't going to shine I think you're wrong, at least in a four-PC group like I'm thinking of. Having another PC ALWAYS greatly expands the party's options in 5E.

That wouldn't be true in a twelve-person group but somehow I doubt that's the scenario we're talking about.

Do you really think you couldn't make a 5E PC with those stats who would shine at something important? I could.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Sybil
Human Noble Wild Sorc 1. 5'1" 90 lbs. Kind of an airhead, but always cheerful and pretty in an ethereal sort of way. Has a good heart and a protective, mothering instinct.
Str 5 Dex 7 Con 8 Int 9 Wis 12 Cha 15, Inspiring Leader feat, AC 8 (11 with Mage Armor). 5 HP, but +3 temp HP for everyone in the party per short rest after Sybil gives one of her famous pep talks.

If she makes it to 10th level, she'll be:
Human Noble Wild Sorc 3/Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard 6
Str 5 Dex 7 Con 8 Int 9 Wis 13 Cha 16, Inspiring Leader feat, AC 20, 39 HP + 13 temp HP for everyone in the party per short rest. Metamagic: Careful Spell, Extended Spell. Magical Secrets: Aura of Vitality, Conjure Animals. Skills: Stealth (Expertise), Perception (Expertise), Athletics, History, Arcana, Persuasion, Insight, Medicine.

Sybil's adventuring-time plate mail sure is noisy and she often prefers to ride a steed or something because frankly it's kind of exhausting for one little girl to carry all this metal, but if she needs to she can Longstrider herself to keep up.

Favorite spells/combos:

Extended Aura of Vitality for 240 HP of healing over the course of two minutes.
Careful Web for 3/4 of the party to hide in without any chance of getting caught themselves. (Will be 4/4 at Cha 18.)
Ditto Careful Stinking Cloud, but with the added opportunity for the players to throw nets without disadvantage (because heavy obscurement cancels out). Nets and Stinking Cloud combo well because a restrained enemy can't exit the cloud with his movement, and an enemy who can't act because he's choking can't get out of the net--so it winds up being much stronger than just a regular Stinking Cloud.
Plinking with Fire Bolt from long range.
Conjure Animals V in tough fights to summon a whole horde of disposable minions to keep the PCs safe.
Blur + Shield when she needs to become unhittable, plus Booming Blade for offense.
Bless, Hypnotic Pattern, and Enhance Ability as appropriate to the situation.
Sanctuary with her bonus action when under attack.

Sybil's favorite form of Cutting Words does not involve insults but rather glowing compliments at inappropriate times:

[bugbear swings at Randolph the Mighty]
Sybil: [squeee!] I love your hair, it's so glossy! Where did you get it done?!
[bugbear misses Randolph and stares momentarily at Sybil]

 

[Valetudo]

What are you talking about? That PC looks perfectly fine to me as a Sharpshooter, Moon Druid, or Sorlock. Sure he effectively can't be a MAD class like a monklock, but so what? When you say he isn't going to shine I think you're wrong, at least in a four-PC group like I'm thinking of. Having another PC ALWAYS greatly expands the party's options in 5E.

That wouldn't be true in a twelve-person group but somehow I doubt that's the scenario we're talking about.

Do you really think you couldn't make a 5E PC with those stats who would shine at something important? I could.

I woukd really like to see the other players before making a judgement call on these stats. If the other players brought super rolled pcs , i could see some problems in play.

 

[Valetudo]

How is sybil even moving in plate with those stats. Plus sybil would probably need tu use alot of spells just to avoid skill checks.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

How is sybil even moving in plate with those stats. Plus sybil would probably need tu use alot of spells just to avoid skill checks.

PHB rules say her carrying capacity is 75 lb. Plate weighs 65 lb. But, you need Str 15 to move at full speed, so her speed drops from 30' to 20' when she's wearing her plate, which is why she prefers to ride a mount or (when necessary) Longstrider herself back up to 30'. Can Expeditious Retreat for an extra Dash if necessary, but like I said, she prefers not to. "Frankly it's kind of exhausting for one little girl to carry all this metal."

I don't understand what you mean by "use a lot of spells just to avoid skill checks."

 

[Oofta]

[EDIT: clarified my post. Sorry it's so long!]

I did a quick comparison (my game got canceled) with my example characters. Not a complete comparison because I ignored feats and stat bumps from leveling up.

I used numbers from a program I wrote to roll random characters, this is an example of 2 characters from the same 6 person "group".
11, 17, 16, 17, 18, 18
14, 9, 5, 8, 7, 11



So if I build two characters at the halfway-ish level of their career (level 10)

As 10th level wood elf archer
Super Dave:
Str 17
Dex 20
Con 18
Int 11
Wis 18
Cha 16

Athletics +3 (untrained)
Intimidation +7
Stealth +9
Survival +8

Attack: +11 Dmg: 1d8+5 (avg 9.5). Avg dmg/hit: 7.6
Hit Points: 95
AC (before armor): 15

Wimpy Kid:
Str 7
Dex 16
Con 11
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 5

Athletics -2 (untrained)
Intimidation -1
Stealth +5
Survival +2

Attack: +7 Dmg: 1d8+3 (avg dmg 7.5). Avg dmg/hit: 4.9
Hit Points: 55
AC (before armor): 13

So in combat, Super Dave is going to last twice as long as Wimpy Kid between having 15% better armor and 73% better HP. Super Dave is also going to average around 60% more damage.

Out of combat? I'm not even going to bother with percentages. Suffice to say Super Dave is good at his proficient skills and pretty good at everything he's not proficient in. Wimpy? Not even particularly good in his proficient skills.

One is a hero, the other is ... not. Could you roleplay Wimpy Dave and have fun? I'll leave that up to you. But if I were playing a game where I was playing Wimpy, I would feel like the sidekick. And not the cool-snappy-comeback sidekick. The "do I have to take him with me mom?" sidekick.

In addition, Wimpy is just not going to have that many viable options. He's adequate at one thing - shooting arrows - but can't take a hit and is pretty useless outside of combat to boot. If I had envisioned playing a stealthy woodland scout/spy sneaking up on the bad guys and intimidating them to get them to talk I'm SOL.

Super Dave could also be a paragon of excellence in just about any class. I would even go so far as to state that his stats are too good for my tastes.

So go ahead, flame me with how you would just love to play Wimpy and how you would bask in the glory of that one time you rolled a 20 and Super Dave rolled a 1. I think the majority (probably the vast majority) of people would disagree.