Edena_of_Neith
First Post
This is a reference to the events of Tolkien's ROTK, and thus to the film ROTK when it is released, and all later versions on DVD.
I use the phrase Battle of Gondor to refer to:
All the events in the chapters: The Siege of Gondor and The Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
The relevant events from the chapters The Passing of the Grey Company, The Ride of the Rohirrim, The Pyre of Denethor, and The Last Debate (the flashbacks concerning The Paths of the Dead.)
The relevants events from the chapters in the Two Towers dealing with the coming of the great darkness and the issuance on the Morgul Host.
They like to infer that these films contain epic battles.
Well, in my opinion, the Battle of Gondor was truly such a battle.
There is a long and powerful buildup to this battle, involving the coming of the great darkness and the Morgul Host, the confrontation between Faramir, Gandalf, and Denethor (in which they all find out the Ring is gone to Mordor; that is to say, they are all in the deepest of water, and the foundations of Denethor's madness and suicide are laid.) and Faramir's return to Osgiliath to defend it.
The buildup continues with Aragorn's mastery of the Palantir against Sauron, his vision of the Black Fleet, and his resolve to walk the Path of the Dead (for only in so doing can Gondor be saved, period.)
The buildup further continues with Rohan's muster, the appearance of Dernhelm, and Merry's decision to defy Theoden and go with the host to battle.
The buildup continues as news comes from Osgiliath of the approach of the Morgul Host, as the darkness ever deepens. Then we hear Osgiliath has fallen, the Black Captain is come, and Gandalf is off to face him.
Explosions and the ground shaking announce the fall of the Causeway Forts, Gandalf returns with the countless wounded, Faramir is in desperate retreat from an army six times the size of that which assailed Helm's Deep, and now it is known the Rohirrim cannot come, since Sauron took Cair Andros and cut off the northern road.
The buildup concludes with the charge of Dol Amroth, a wounded Faramir brought into the city, and Denethor looking into the Palantir, returning to his own death vigil by his failing son.
Only then does the actual battle begin.
There is fighting, and more fighting, and more fighting. All the horror of Helm's Deep is here, and more.
Yet here the Nazgul are assailing the city with fear, and the city is falling before it, even as the mind of Denethor is falling before the gaze of a horrified Pippin.
All day and all night the battle continues, and Minas Tirith burns, and her defenders have fled her walls. Denethor has fallen into madness, leadership and communications are broken, and still the level of the assault is intensifying as great siege weapons, including Grond, are brought to bear.
In the south, Aragorn has summoned the Dead, and fighting a running battle across Gondor to Pelargir, where another host of the enemy to rival that attacking Minas Tirith awaits him. The Corsairs and the Haradrim combined. Aragorn's onslaught is desperate, and he pushes himself and those with him beyond the limits of human endurance (as stated in the book) for time has run out. If he cannot win through to Pelargir and up to Minas Tirith within a few short days, he knows all is lost.
In the north, Theoden is confronted by the Easterling Host, which is entrenched for the sole purpose of halting him dead on the road, but with the aid of Ghan-Buri-Ghan he bypasses them and moves through Drunadan Wood. A going that is all too agonizingly slow, as Minas Tirith burns and Ghan-Buri-Ghan points out all the grim facts.
The assault on Minas Tirith is victorious. The defenders at the Gate are frozen by the fear of the Lord of the Nazgul, the Gates are shattered by Grond, and only Gandalf alone stands to face the Black Captain in his Hour of Triumph (he himself said it: This is my hour.)
In that moment of victory, victory is snatched away as the darkness breaks, the Rohirrim come, and the Black Captain in fury must turn away. Yet Gandalf cannot pursue, for now Pippin is tuggging at him, beseeching him to save Faramir, even as Denethor readies to burn him and himself alive in Rath Dinen. Gandalf must fly to Faramir's aid, with disastrous results on the battlefield. And still, Aragorn has not come.
The battle against the Corsairs is an overwhelming victory for Aragorn, and the Southrons that remain flee, to bear ghastly tales of the wrath and terror of Gondor home, but Aragorn is still far from Minas Tirith, and without his aid victory is not possible in the battle that is truly important. In desperate haste he rows up Anduin, aided by the wind and the return of the light.
The onslaught of the Rohirrim is grand. They come close to breaking the Siege. Thousands of the enemy fall before them, and the whole northern encampment is overrun.
Theoden, along with Dernhelm and Merry, charge the Lord of the Haradrim, and he charges them. Great is the clash of their meeting (the kind of scene that would beggar the clash of the Rohirrim and Warg Riders of Isengard.)
Theoden is victorious, the Lord of the Haradrim falls, and the standard of the Black Serpent goes down.
Then the grand charge turns tragic, as the Black Captain descends from on high, turning (as Tolkien puts it) hope to despair, and victory to death. Theoden is crushed, his guards are killed or scattered, and the whole Rohirrim onslaught broken.
The heroism of Eowyn and Merry grants the good side their single greatest military achievement, as they kill the Black Captain, and it seems both of them will give their lives for the deed. A bewildered, amazed, and ultimately crazed Eomer sees his sister, thought safe in Dunharrow, lying dead upon the field with Theoden.
Now the battle waxes furious.
Eomer leads all the Rohirrim in a suicide charge. All the cavalry of Minas Tirith, led by Imrahil and Hirluin, charge forth to aid him. All the footmen of Gondor come forth, in their thousands, to drive against the enemy.
New forces of the enemy swarm into the field. The Rohirrim, beset against the Oliphants, are cut off, while Imrahil and Hirluin fight a losing battle to break through to help them. The men of Gondor and the legions of Morgul fight it out, turning the Pelennor into a charnel house. The enemy is too strong. All the heroism and all the efforts of Gondor and Rohan combined cannot win against that enemy.
Then the Black Sails are seen, and ALL hope is lost.
Upon the foremost ship breaks the great Standard.
That standard is Gondor's standard.
Yet it is also the standard of the Kings of Gondor, which has not been seen in a thousand years, and there is wonder, amazement, and joy, while the hosts of Mordor are seized with bewilderment and dread.
Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, the Dunedain, the Sons of Elrond (I suppose Arwen, in the film? ...), and a vast force from Gondor charge upon the field.
This is where Aragorn has shown his strength. This is where he discovered the strength within himself, and choose to use it. The strength to summon the Dead. The strength to ride to Pelargir. The strength to hold others with him. Victory at Pelargir. And now, the strength to wield Narsil, the legendary blade itself.
That strength is sufficient. It turns the tide. The hosts of Mordor are unable to withstand it, and they are slaughtered wholesale, as the entire combined might of all the good side comes at them.
Even so, they fight all the rest of the day, ask for no quarter, and they will not retreat. They die where they fall, and the dew of Rammas Echor runs red from the City to the distant river.
Forlong of Lossarnach is killed. Hirluin is killed. Halbarad the Ranger is killed. Theoden lays dead. Denethor is dead. Eowyn and Merry lay dying. Thousands (not hundreds) of the men of Gondor and Rohan lay dead or dying on the field. Of those that survive, many are wounded. Minas Tirith lays smouldering in the red sunset.
My poor words cannot convey the grandness and horror of the great battle. That is for Tolkien to accomplish, not me.
My point is that Peter Jackson has chosen to attempt to capture this battle - the battle my words so inadequately describe above - on film.
He must do it within the 3 hour limit of his film.
He must do it, and somehow introduce the character of Denethor, who is yet unknown to the filmgoer.
He must do it, and do everything ELSE that happened in ROTK as well ... all in that 3 hours.
Even as the Battle of Gondor is building and then raging, Frodo and Sam are undergoing their own grand and tragic story, as big as anything befalling Minas Tirith.
I do not see how it can be done.
I do not see how justice, true justice, can be done to Tolkien regarding the great battle.
I suppose that if anyone can do it, Peter Jackson can. I just do not see how he is going to do it.
EPIC is the word for the Battle of Gondor. And epic requires appropriate treatment of the subject matter.
Can someone out there answer my unspoken question?
Can someone out there tell me how Peter Jackson is to accomplish capturing the Battle of Gondor in his film?
(Yes, if he had 5 or 6 hours for his film, I wouldn't ask this question, for I think that given that much time, Peter Jackson could accomplish what amounts to an epic task. However, he does not have 6, 5, or even 4 hours in which to do so. Only the allotted time in a 3 hour film. An epic challenge to an epic director, to capture an epic battle. How will he do it?)
I use the phrase Battle of Gondor to refer to:
All the events in the chapters: The Siege of Gondor and The Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
The relevant events from the chapters The Passing of the Grey Company, The Ride of the Rohirrim, The Pyre of Denethor, and The Last Debate (the flashbacks concerning The Paths of the Dead.)
The relevants events from the chapters in the Two Towers dealing with the coming of the great darkness and the issuance on the Morgul Host.
They like to infer that these films contain epic battles.
Well, in my opinion, the Battle of Gondor was truly such a battle.
There is a long and powerful buildup to this battle, involving the coming of the great darkness and the Morgul Host, the confrontation between Faramir, Gandalf, and Denethor (in which they all find out the Ring is gone to Mordor; that is to say, they are all in the deepest of water, and the foundations of Denethor's madness and suicide are laid.) and Faramir's return to Osgiliath to defend it.
The buildup continues with Aragorn's mastery of the Palantir against Sauron, his vision of the Black Fleet, and his resolve to walk the Path of the Dead (for only in so doing can Gondor be saved, period.)
The buildup further continues with Rohan's muster, the appearance of Dernhelm, and Merry's decision to defy Theoden and go with the host to battle.
The buildup continues as news comes from Osgiliath of the approach of the Morgul Host, as the darkness ever deepens. Then we hear Osgiliath has fallen, the Black Captain is come, and Gandalf is off to face him.
Explosions and the ground shaking announce the fall of the Causeway Forts, Gandalf returns with the countless wounded, Faramir is in desperate retreat from an army six times the size of that which assailed Helm's Deep, and now it is known the Rohirrim cannot come, since Sauron took Cair Andros and cut off the northern road.
The buildup concludes with the charge of Dol Amroth, a wounded Faramir brought into the city, and Denethor looking into the Palantir, returning to his own death vigil by his failing son.
Only then does the actual battle begin.
There is fighting, and more fighting, and more fighting. All the horror of Helm's Deep is here, and more.
Yet here the Nazgul are assailing the city with fear, and the city is falling before it, even as the mind of Denethor is falling before the gaze of a horrified Pippin.
All day and all night the battle continues, and Minas Tirith burns, and her defenders have fled her walls. Denethor has fallen into madness, leadership and communications are broken, and still the level of the assault is intensifying as great siege weapons, including Grond, are brought to bear.
In the south, Aragorn has summoned the Dead, and fighting a running battle across Gondor to Pelargir, where another host of the enemy to rival that attacking Minas Tirith awaits him. The Corsairs and the Haradrim combined. Aragorn's onslaught is desperate, and he pushes himself and those with him beyond the limits of human endurance (as stated in the book) for time has run out. If he cannot win through to Pelargir and up to Minas Tirith within a few short days, he knows all is lost.
In the north, Theoden is confronted by the Easterling Host, which is entrenched for the sole purpose of halting him dead on the road, but with the aid of Ghan-Buri-Ghan he bypasses them and moves through Drunadan Wood. A going that is all too agonizingly slow, as Minas Tirith burns and Ghan-Buri-Ghan points out all the grim facts.
The assault on Minas Tirith is victorious. The defenders at the Gate are frozen by the fear of the Lord of the Nazgul, the Gates are shattered by Grond, and only Gandalf alone stands to face the Black Captain in his Hour of Triumph (he himself said it: This is my hour.)
In that moment of victory, victory is snatched away as the darkness breaks, the Rohirrim come, and the Black Captain in fury must turn away. Yet Gandalf cannot pursue, for now Pippin is tuggging at him, beseeching him to save Faramir, even as Denethor readies to burn him and himself alive in Rath Dinen. Gandalf must fly to Faramir's aid, with disastrous results on the battlefield. And still, Aragorn has not come.
The battle against the Corsairs is an overwhelming victory for Aragorn, and the Southrons that remain flee, to bear ghastly tales of the wrath and terror of Gondor home, but Aragorn is still far from Minas Tirith, and without his aid victory is not possible in the battle that is truly important. In desperate haste he rows up Anduin, aided by the wind and the return of the light.
The onslaught of the Rohirrim is grand. They come close to breaking the Siege. Thousands of the enemy fall before them, and the whole northern encampment is overrun.
Theoden, along with Dernhelm and Merry, charge the Lord of the Haradrim, and he charges them. Great is the clash of their meeting (the kind of scene that would beggar the clash of the Rohirrim and Warg Riders of Isengard.)
Theoden is victorious, the Lord of the Haradrim falls, and the standard of the Black Serpent goes down.
Then the grand charge turns tragic, as the Black Captain descends from on high, turning (as Tolkien puts it) hope to despair, and victory to death. Theoden is crushed, his guards are killed or scattered, and the whole Rohirrim onslaught broken.
The heroism of Eowyn and Merry grants the good side their single greatest military achievement, as they kill the Black Captain, and it seems both of them will give their lives for the deed. A bewildered, amazed, and ultimately crazed Eomer sees his sister, thought safe in Dunharrow, lying dead upon the field with Theoden.
Now the battle waxes furious.
Eomer leads all the Rohirrim in a suicide charge. All the cavalry of Minas Tirith, led by Imrahil and Hirluin, charge forth to aid him. All the footmen of Gondor come forth, in their thousands, to drive against the enemy.
New forces of the enemy swarm into the field. The Rohirrim, beset against the Oliphants, are cut off, while Imrahil and Hirluin fight a losing battle to break through to help them. The men of Gondor and the legions of Morgul fight it out, turning the Pelennor into a charnel house. The enemy is too strong. All the heroism and all the efforts of Gondor and Rohan combined cannot win against that enemy.
Then the Black Sails are seen, and ALL hope is lost.
Upon the foremost ship breaks the great Standard.
That standard is Gondor's standard.
Yet it is also the standard of the Kings of Gondor, which has not been seen in a thousand years, and there is wonder, amazement, and joy, while the hosts of Mordor are seized with bewilderment and dread.
Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, the Dunedain, the Sons of Elrond (I suppose Arwen, in the film? ...), and a vast force from Gondor charge upon the field.
This is where Aragorn has shown his strength. This is where he discovered the strength within himself, and choose to use it. The strength to summon the Dead. The strength to ride to Pelargir. The strength to hold others with him. Victory at Pelargir. And now, the strength to wield Narsil, the legendary blade itself.
That strength is sufficient. It turns the tide. The hosts of Mordor are unable to withstand it, and they are slaughtered wholesale, as the entire combined might of all the good side comes at them.
Even so, they fight all the rest of the day, ask for no quarter, and they will not retreat. They die where they fall, and the dew of Rammas Echor runs red from the City to the distant river.
Forlong of Lossarnach is killed. Hirluin is killed. Halbarad the Ranger is killed. Theoden lays dead. Denethor is dead. Eowyn and Merry lay dying. Thousands (not hundreds) of the men of Gondor and Rohan lay dead or dying on the field. Of those that survive, many are wounded. Minas Tirith lays smouldering in the red sunset.
My poor words cannot convey the grandness and horror of the great battle. That is for Tolkien to accomplish, not me.
My point is that Peter Jackson has chosen to attempt to capture this battle - the battle my words so inadequately describe above - on film.
He must do it within the 3 hour limit of his film.
He must do it, and somehow introduce the character of Denethor, who is yet unknown to the filmgoer.
He must do it, and do everything ELSE that happened in ROTK as well ... all in that 3 hours.
Even as the Battle of Gondor is building and then raging, Frodo and Sam are undergoing their own grand and tragic story, as big as anything befalling Minas Tirith.
I do not see how it can be done.
I do not see how justice, true justice, can be done to Tolkien regarding the great battle.
I suppose that if anyone can do it, Peter Jackson can. I just do not see how he is going to do it.
EPIC is the word for the Battle of Gondor. And epic requires appropriate treatment of the subject matter.
Can someone out there answer my unspoken question?
Can someone out there tell me how Peter Jackson is to accomplish capturing the Battle of Gondor in his film?
(Yes, if he had 5 or 6 hours for his film, I wouldn't ask this question, for I think that given that much time, Peter Jackson could accomplish what amounts to an epic task. However, he does not have 6, 5, or even 4 hours in which to do so. Only the allotted time in a 3 hour film. An epic challenge to an epic director, to capture an epic battle. How will he do it?)
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. I imagine most of the battle will be shown in passing. In between other things we will see how the battle is raging. Rather than seeing most of the different charges and movements of the battle they will be inferred. I also feel that Peter will probably expand on certain things from the book thus cutting more into the 3 hours. For example I have a feeling that Aragorn's trip through the paths of the dead is going to be expanded on.
