RotK spoilers: The Sauruman Problem

[TiQuinn]

Faramir (in the film) never tries to take actual possession of the Ring but bring it his father and Gondor. That is a HUGE difference. Look at how badly the Ring tempted Galadriel (arguably the wisest person in Middle Earth). Faramir is certainly influenced by the power of the Ring, but not in the same way. One could even make the argument that the Ring knew that Faramir would have resisted a direct "tempting", so the will of the Ring worked around that by playing on Faramir's weakness regarding his father's lack of respect for him.

The problem I have with Faramir is that it's very difficult to distinguish between the two brothers until the end of the movie. As I watched it in the theater, all I could see was that Faramir wanted to "prove his worth" and return the ring to Gondor. The difference between Boromir and Faramir here is slight. Yes, Faramir may not want it for himself, but the motive is still selfish. The extended DVD may cast more light on Faramir's relationship with his brother and his father, but it's somewhat after the fact. I wish they hadn't cut the scenes to begin with because the theater version really makes Faramir seem like a emotionless jerk up until the very end.

 

[kengar]

The problem I have with Faramir is that it's very difficult to distinguish between the two brothers until the end of the movie. As I watched it in the theater, all I could see was that Faramir wanted to "prove his worth" and return the ring to Gondor. The difference between Boromir and Faramir here is slight. Yes, Faramir may not want it for himself, but the motive is still selfish. The extended DVD may cast more light on Faramir's relationship with his brother and his father, but it's somewhat after the fact. I wish they hadn't cut the scenes to begin with because the theater version really makes Faramir seem like a emotionless jerk up until the very end.

No argument that their take on Faramir was hurt by cuttting those scenes. From what I've read, the DVD scenes go a long way to fleshing the character and his conflicts out.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Where else are they going to go? Fighting the Uruk armies on the field just wasn't a viable option in the book or the movie. And since Eomer/Erkenbrand were so far off, they needed to hold out as long as possible. Helm's Deep was perfect.

I know. In the book going to Helm's Deep is the best, most logical choice to make a stand. I don't remember Aragorn and the rest trying to talk him out of it. In the movie they talk about going there and all of the fellowship people are saying it's a mistake and he won't listen.

 

[kengar]

I know. In the book going to Helm's Deep is the best, most logical choice to make a stand. I don't remember Aragorn and the rest trying to talk him out of it. In the movie they talk about going there and all of the fellowship people are saying it's a mistake and he won't listen.

In the book, Theoden rides out to meet the orcs on his borders but is met partway there by his men telling him that a huge army of orcs is coming and they've had to retreat. That's the point as which Theoden decides the smart tactic is to head to Helm's Deep and bolster the garrison there.

In the movie, he chooses to go directly to HD and the Fellowship (Gandalf & Aragorn) counsel him to meet the enemy "head on" instead. Theoden is portrayed as trying to play it safe when that's no longer an option. Though truthfully, I think meeting 10,000 Uruk-Hai on the open field would have been a big mistake on Rohan's part but I'm no military strategist.

Personally, I kinda felt like Gandalf (& even Aragorn) were playing Theoden by trying to get him attack in the film. Theoden was thinking of Rohan first. Gandalf & Aragorn were thinking of Middle Earth. While their motives weren't evil it almost felt like they were willing to use Rohan for the greater good. Of course, that's just impressions, YMMV.

 

[Pants]

I know. In the book going to Helm's Deep is the best, most logical choice to make a stand. I don't remember Aragorn and the rest trying to talk him out of it. In the movie they talk about going there and all of the fellowship people are saying it's a mistake and he won't listen.

So, following Gandalf and Aragorn's advice of meeting the army in the field was the best choice? They weren't even aware of the numbers Saruman had and they're urging Theoden to fight in the field.
Now granted, I take more issue with Gandalf giving Theoden bad advice than I do with Theoden ignoring it. To me, in the movie, Theoden is wise, he was smart enough to hide behind the most well defended fortress in Rohan.

 

[Squire James]

Actually, I wonder how much of that Galadriel scene was really of her being tempted, and how much of it was an act to demonstrate to Frodo why he shouldn't be trying to give the Ring away to every powerful person he met! If it was the latter, though, it obviously didn't work. He offers it to Aragorn and even the flying Nazgul. He's like that little kid "Errand" in the Belgariad... he practically runs around offering it to everyone!

... except poor Boromir, the only guy who actually expressed a desire to have it!

 

[kengar]

Actually, I wonder how much of that Galadriel scene was really of her being tempted, and how much of it was an act to demonstrate to Frodo why he shouldn't be trying to give the Ring away to every powerful person he met! If it was the latter, though, it obviously didn't work. He offers it to Aragorn and even the flying Nazgul. He's like that little kid "Errand" in the Belgariad... he practically runs around offering it to everyone!

... except poor Boromir, the only guy who actually expressed a desire to have it!

Well (and this is in the books as well as the films) she says she admits her heart has "long desired this (the Ring)" and after she refuses she says "I pass the test. I will diminish and go into the West; and remain Galadriel." This would seem to indicate a level of temptation.

 

[Alaric_Prympax]

Actually, I wonder how much of that Galadriel scene was really of her being tempted, and how much of it was an act to demonstrate to Frodo why he shouldn't be trying to give the Ring away to every powerful person he met! If it was the latter, though, it obviously didn't work. He offers it to Aragorn and even the flying Nazgul. He's like that little kid "Errand" in the Belgariad... he practically runs around offering it to everyone!

... except poor Boromir, the only guy who actually expressed a desire to have it!

From what I remember of the books Frodo offers the Ring to people on 3 occations and one of those is really "iffy"

1. To Gandalf when he learns the history of the Ring (as shown in the movie)

2. To Aragorn durning the Council of Elrond when Frodo learns the Ring is Isildur's Bane he says (paraphrasing) "Then it doesn't belong to me at all and is yours" Aragorn declines and says that it is Frodo's duty to hold on to it a little longer. This is the "iffy" one IMO.

3. To Galadriel and she is tempted. Her resistance is what allows her to be able to return to the West because she left with most of the Noldor (and is suffering their Doom) and followed Feanor back to Middle Earth (and left her father Finarfin).

IIRC he never offered it to any of the Nazgul and fought them with every fiber of his being till he claimed the Ring for his own in the Sammath Naur.

 

[Assenpfeffer]

Granted the torch thing was cheesy. My point was that the bombs were in the books.

Actually I thought the silly bit was the fact that the culvert was surrounded by Orcs with torches when the olympic torch-orc rounded the corner.

 

[DMScott]

From what I remember of the books Frodo offers the Ring to people on 3 occations and one of those is really "iffy"

There's a fourth - he offers it to Tom Bombadil, who is both uninterested in keeping it and unaffected by it. Elrond's council briefly discusses just giving the ring to Bombadil to keep since he's the only being who could resist the temptation of using it. They eventually decide that it's not good enough to hide the ring, it has to be destroyed.

Bombadil of course didn't make it into the movies at all - too long a side trek.