Royal Rumble: Multiclass vs. Hybrid!

[C4]

I have a dilemma.* I feel like multiclassing and hybriding are redundant, and I'd like to simply ban one as part of my house rules. But they both have pros and cons:

Multiclassing
House Rule I Already Use: You don't have to blow feats just to swap out for a E/D/U power. If you have a MC feat, you get the option automatically.
Pro: Simple. No mucking about with fractional hit points, hybrid talents or whathaveyou.
Pro: It's mostly balanced. MC feats kinda make Skill Training a second-class option, though.
Con: MCing is a bit limited, I guess. It's a dash of difference, rather than a dollop.

Hybriding
Pro: Seems to be popular in the online community, though I've only seen one in play. I guess a lot of players want to have a dollop of difference.
Con: PHB3 outright says "WARNING: you might seriously frack up your PC." I Also suspect that there are a few cheese options that hybriding opens up.
Con: Much more involved than MCing. I have a player who's expressed interest in being a fighter|beastmaster, and I know he'd frack up the math and probably his character.

*Although it may be a false one. I could allow both. Or I could invent a house ruled way to dual-class.

 

[Ryujin]

I banned Hybrids, in my campaign. Even barring the fact that I have to deal with a player who likes to 'accidentally' forget the limitations of his abilities, there is a very real issue with people HONESTLY making the mistake of bridging abilities and bonuses from one class, to the other.

With Multi-classing, that isn't an issue. Most things that work for either class, work for both. For example a Rogue, with Warlock multi-class, would be able to use Warlock's Curse with a Rogue attack power.

 

[IanB]

I don't think they're redundant, personally - multiclassing does a good job at representing a character who just dabbles in the 2nd class, which is something that you can't really do with a hybrid.

Hybrids are more about fusing two things into a single concept which I think narratively speaking is a very different kind of character, and something you can't really accomplish very well through the original multiclassing rules. I'd want to have both available personally just to accomodate a greater variety of concepts.

 

[Colmarr]

Your house rule goes a long way towards making paragon multiclassing viable.

If you allow PCs to take hybrid talent feats where a PP would normally grant features (levels 11 and 16) and massage those feats so that they actually work, you'd probably have a very workable multiclassing system.

 

[Marshall]

I banned Hybrids, in my campaign. Even barring the fact that I have to deal with a player who likes to 'accidentally' forget the limitations of his abilities, there is a very real issue with people HONESTLY making the mistake of bridging abilities and bonuses from one class, to the other.

With Multi-classing, that isn't an issue. Most things that work for either class, work for both. For example a Rogue, with Warlock multi-class, would be able to use Warlock's Curse with a Rogue attack power.

The question is whether you find that to be an issue or not. In play, its not that big of a difference. The PHB3 devs erred way on the side of caution with Hybrids and probably should have allowed that cross-pollination to take place(Twin Striking Avengers aside). In the example of your Warlock|Rogue, is it that big a deal that he get Curse Damage added to Riposte Strike or Sneak Attack with Eldritch Blast?

 

[fba827]

They may seem redundant but they turn out very different things.

Having said that, if you did want to house-rule one to say it wasn't allowed, I would say dissallow hybrids -- a player (particularly newer player) has the greatest chance of making a mistake during PC creation that is hard to recover from (example: let's say you don't notice you won't get the class feature that boosts your AC that the full class would get, suddenly you're with minimal armor proficiencies and no class feature to compensate - and so on)

 

[Ryujin]

The question is whether you find that to be an issue or not. In play, its not that big of a difference. The PHB3 devs erred way on the side of caution with Hybrids and probably should have allowed that cross-pollination to take place(Twin Striking Avengers aside). In the example of your Warlock|Rogue, is it that big a deal that he get Curse Damage added to Riposte Strike or Sneak Attack with Eldritch Blast?

The way that I see it, it's the difference between consistently high damage, or a once per encounter spike.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I find Hybrids really weak, and a good way for an unwary player to seriously screw up his character. In most of my games, anyone is welcome to follow either option, and I will not worry about it much.

I would let people take both, though with your multiclassing rules, I would never be a hybrid.

 

[mneme]

I'd be tempted to ban hybrids just beause, as people say, it's hard to get it right. But really, neither are intrinisically a problem. There are some strong combinations available; Swordmage|Wizard is often cited, or Paladin|Warlock (which is not only strong in terms of being able to fulfil both roles, but has mechanical support), but they have their drawbacks too, and they at least aren't better at their core roles than a single classed character.

Marshal: I think the restriction is very much a means to an end; combining Riposte Strike and curse damage isn't a problem -- but combining Riposte Strike with Sneak Attack damage with curse damage would be, as it would let people build a better striker with the hybrid rules than with a base class (as they're doubling up on core striker features in exchange for other class features), something they expressly didn't want.

That said, the worst of the problems you already have (swordmage|wizard is strong because they get to take wizard powers but have swordmage marking and defenses; a swordmage in your game can do that -now- by multiclassing to wizard and favoring wizard powers over swordmage powers), so I wouldn't worry about it. The two options are simply different; hybrids get two main class features and lose out on secondary class features, whereas multiclassers lose nothing (except a feat) and gain a limited class feature (or more than one, with multiple multiclass feats into the same class).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Lots of people in this thread seem to be down on hybrids and/or ban them because they are "easy to screw up"...

Whatever happened to letting players figure stuff out for themselves? What about mentoring? And as for über combos, whatever happened to the DM just saying "No" to a build rather than doing the whole Baby & Bathwater Toss?

It just seems to me like overkill because of not wanting to bother.

(Then again, I generally prefer 4Ed's Hybrid rules to the MC rules.)