Royal Rumble: Multiclass vs. Hybrid!

[fba827]

Lots of people in this thread seem to be down on hybrids and/or ban them because they are "easy to screw up"...

Whatever happened to letting players figure stuff out for themselves? What about mentoring? And as for über combos, whatever happened to the DM just saying "No" to a build rather than doing the whole Baby & Bathwater Toss?

It just seems to me like overkill because of not wanting to bother.

(Then again, I generally prefer 4Ed's Hybrid rules to the MC rules.)

Personally -- it's not that *I* would say no to a hybrid at my game... in fact, I've seen a couple players just completely screw themselves over with building a hybrid that they thought would be "so cool" not realizing that they shot themselves in the foot until halfway into the first session. Though I don't say anything as they will see it for themselves or learn to like it for other reasons, etc... after all i don't want them constantly bemoaning that i "didn't let them play their cool concept"

I think the point here is that we were answering the OP's question "if I got rid of one which one should i get rid of" so given the choice between the two (taking his house rule for multiclassing into account that reduces feat burden) then hybriding does seem to come out as the weaker of the two choices that he is trying to decide between.

 

[Dausuul]

I love hybrids, but they are rather an advanced option. (My favorite hybrid so far was a wizard/warlord with Strength 8, Intelligence 20, and a whip. All of her warlord powers were of the "your ally gets a free attack" variety and her wizard powers were heavy on the forced movement and debuffs. She didn't deal much damage herself, but she controlled the battlefield like whoa.) Hybrids are for:

• Players who know the rules well enough to build them effectively
• Players who don't care if their characters are effective or not

My suggestion would be that if anyone is really set on playing a hybrid, you should have that person build a character and then run that character through a few test battles against level-appropriate foes. That should weed out anybody who wants an effective character but lacks the skills to build one under the hybrid rules.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I like hybrids, simply because it lets you have an at-will from both 'halves' of the character, and the at-wills tend to be the defining features of characters because they are what see a LOT of use.

Plus, this makes it easy to create some really interesting archetypes which are not well met in the standard classes.

Cheers

 

[C4]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. The more I read, the more I want to go with option D -- house rule a third way. Well, I'd probably allow MCing more or less how I allow it currently but I'd write a second MC feat for those who want a deeper dual-classing experience. (For lack of a better term.) The second feat would allow for more power swapping (including an at-will swap) and better/more dual-class abilities.

Haven't worked out the details yet.

Whatever happened to letting players figure stuff out for themselves? What about mentoring? And as for über combos, whatever happened to the DM just saying "No" to a build rather than doing the whole Baby & Bathwater Toss?

For me, a big draw of 4e is that you have to actively try to screw up to screw your character. Of course there are exceptions, like hybriding, which is why I started the thread.

As to saying No, I consider that my last resort. While I'm writing house rules, I might as well head off the options I'd say No to, if I can.

I like hybrids, simply because it lets you have an at-will from both 'halves' of the character, and the at-wills tend to be the defining features of characters because they are what see a LOT of use.

I see where you're coming from.

Plus, this makes it easy to create some really interesting archetypes which are not well met in the standard classes.

Can you give me a few examples? It might help, while I'm writing my house rules.

 

[Talok]

Even with as many classes as 4E currently has and the mutliclassing rules, there a lot of PC concepts that can only be done justice with a hybrid. For example, if you want to make a ninja, a rogue or executioner is good, but a monk|rogue is better. It is slightly more complicated to make a hybrid character, but just make sure the player understands that he doesn't get all the features of both classes, you can't mix hybrid striker features with other classes powers, and you probably will need to take hybrid talent as your first feat to have a decent AC or a class ability that is crucial to the build.

 

[Marshall]

Marshal: I think the restriction is very much a means to an end; combining Riposte Strike and curse damage isn't a problem -- but combining Riposte Strike with Sneak Attack damage with curse damage would be, as it would let people build a better striker with the hybrid rules than with a base class (as they're doubling up on core striker features in exchange for other class features), something they expressly didn't want.

True, but there are better ways of blocking that off than what they did.
Honestly, if a PC can jump thru the hoops to line up multiple striker features then go for it.

 

[BobTheNob]

To OP. I like your house rule.

One feat = Good base bonus's (most of the MC feats are good feats) with power swaps built in. Makes it a monumental feat, but you can only take one, so thats good. Mind you, what about bards? And that dumb background option where everyone seems to come from the same place so they could take it?

I might go one step extra. Another feat, with pre-req of a multi-classing feat, that allows you to swap the primary stat of your MC class to your primary class, kinda like stat swaps for basic attacks, but powers from an mc'd class only. Allows for previously infeasible combinations.

 

[Ryujin]

The "dumb background" that you mention, Windrise Ports, was nerfed from two potential multi-classes to an extra language and another skill added to the class skill list.

 

[BobTheNob]

The "dumb background" that you mention, Windrise Ports, was nerfed from two potential multi-classes to an extra language and another skill added to the class skill list.

Yea, thats right. Funny, that places population must have halved overnight when WOTC made that little correction.

 

[Ryujin]

Yea, thats right. Funny, that places population must have halved overnight when WOTC made that little correction.

I can just imagine the scene as everyone in town simultaneously grabbed their heads, screaming out something about having "it" ripped out of their heads.

It also screwed up a rather nice and hardly over-powered Elric style Warlock/Bard/Swordmage that I had created, for thematic reasons.