RPG Illegal File Sharing Hurts the Hobby

Crothian

First Post
Dr. Awkward said:
They're not leading by example and speaking for themselves.

DM has no illegal PDFs, thus he leads by example. I think you are taking the statements to a riduculus extreme that the poster did not say even if you can argue that his words might mean that. There is nothing wrong with people not wanting to play with people that use illegal copies.
 

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JohnNephew

First Post
There's no way to determine the exact impact of piracy. Self-reporting can't be trusted. A lot of people will say, "Publishers don't lose sales, because the pirates [such as, implicitly, the person speaking] never would have paid for the PDF or printed book anyhow." Whatever its other faults as an argument, there is no way to prove or disprove it. All you have is the word of someone who has gotten something for free, versus the hypothetical of what if they hadn't been able to get it for free.

I feel that the preponderance of evidence is that piracy does hurt sales. There are anecdotal stories (lots of game store owners reporting customers who they expect to buy a book saying they won't because they got a PDF on the internet and printed copies at work for everyone in their gaming group); my experience in putting Ars Magica 4th Edition online for free was that we saw print sales of that book plummet. But there were other factors in the case of Ars Magica: for one, we were giving it willingly, so there was no guilt or implied obligation to buy the print book if you liked the download; for another, we had a new edition in the works, so that could have depressed sales of the then-current print edition. And before online piracy, there were people who photocopied their friends' game books at work rather than spend money on their own copies.

I find piracy irritating and personally insulting. It raises my hackles when self-centered jerks say piracy is basically OK because copyright just protects corporation and hoses artists. (So it's OK to rip me off, because I work as a publisher helping other peoples' writing get into print, rather than writing as much of my own work as I used to. I guess my work and financial investment don't matter, and aren't worthy of monetary compensation.) They have a world of justifications for how it's really not so bad after all, rationalizations that allow them to feel morally OK in spite of something that they know, fundamentally, is wrong. They want everyone else to do it, because then they can point at everyone else and say, "What, are you going to punish EVERYONE? 'Cause everyone's doing it!"

It's true, most effort to curb piracy is not worth the effort, especially if it comes with a price of inconveniencing your true customers, the honest people who pay your wage if you are a writer, artist, editor, or publisher. If you're not big enough, like the record industry, to spend a lot on lawyers hunting down the jerks and making them pay, you're pretty much just going to suffer it. Just as, if your home or property get vandalized, most of the time you're going to just suffer and there's nothing that can be done; the perps will get away and laugh at you while doing it. You can live your life fearing that every stranger who walks down the street may be planning to vandalize your home, and behaving accordingly, but that's not a very happy way to live.

But here's the bottom line. We don't need to determine whether piracy hurts sales or not. The market will decide. In recent years, the market has spoken clearly: RPG sales are declining. There are many reasons, but I suspect one of them is piracy. As a result of that decline, publishers are reducing how many products they make.

For example, we've cut publishing for d20 entirely. Ars Magica books sell better than d20 for us, and I suspect that part of the reason is that the Ars Magica audience is loyal and understands that buying is not only getting a book but supporting a hobby, a specific game that they play and love and wish to see continue.

Basically, in the world of file sharing, an increasing number of purchases are like donations to public radio/TV -- choices made to support a provider of entertainment, not an exchange of funds for a specific product. This is especially when your choice is whether to pay for a PDF on a site like RPGNow, versus downloading the identical digital file from a filesharing service. As the pro-piracy voices continue to win converts in their effort to morally normalize their activities, more and more people will accept piracy as, at worst, a petty transgression. (This is tough on people who are paid by royalties. Someone who really enjoyed your book, which they downloaded for free, may soothe their conscience by purchasing another product entirely...which may help the publisher, but doesn't generate any royalties for that author.)

I suspect that d20 is more vulnerable to piracy, because d20 material is so fungible or commodified, and the same open source model that allows for so much diversity in the d20 field means too that each d20 book in print has to compete not only with the other printed books, but all of the pirated copies of those books available online for free. This is an incredible market force -- it's really hard to compete against a near-zero price tag (depending on whether you measure a cost for bandwidth, printing out of files, etc.). There's not as much loyalty to a specific producer, because the d20 economy does not demand it: If one d20 publisher goes out of business due to lack of revenue (because people don't have to pay, unless they feel a strong and specific compulsion to support that specific company by going and buying a legal copy of something they liked), there will be other d20 publishers to fill the gap.

-John Nephew
President, Atlas Games
 

Lonely Tylenol

First Post
JohnNephew said:
In recent years, the market has spoken clearly: RPG sales are declining.

Are they? Do you have any proof? WotC's spokespeople have recently said that the market's never been better, for their books at least. I suspect that if WotC is doing well, small press publishers are at least able to ride those coattails. I have no reason to believe otherwise, but if you've got some numbers to prove your case, go ahead and lay them out.
 

Crothian

First Post
Dr. Awkward said:
Are they? Do you have any proof? WotC's spokespeople have recently said that the market's never been better, for their books at least. I suspect that if WotC is doing well, small press publishers are at least able to ride those coattails. I have no reason to believe otherwise, but if you've got some numbers to prove your case, go ahead and lay them out.

Wizards didn't offer any numbers, but you are obviously chooseing to believe them. So why demand numbers from others?
 

Justin

Explorer
Since we're on the topic of Intellectual Property, I thought I'd post a link to this PDF for something to chew on.

Btw, I'm going out of town in about 5 minutes, but I'll be back Wednesday night. Please email me if you have comments or criticisms to prevent this thread from becoming too political.

Justin
 

Falkus

Explorer
Unfortunately, we live in an age when people from all levels of society strive to bend laws and ethics to suit whatever their needs are at that particular time.

You think this is new? I don't support piracy, but if you think people being unethical when it's convenient is something new, then you have a very poor understanding of humanity's history.
 

Feathercircle

First Post
Cergorach said:
Please keep in mind that a lot of this stems form the day when a lot of books were out of print and were getting redicules prices at ebay, now a lot of that material is available for very reasonable prices (in electronic format). But like all things, a lot of people would rather spend their cash on booz, smoke, drugs, their other half, their next generation, instead of funding the 'hobby'. I personally don't care if it' s wrong or illegal, it's just not smart. Sure, you'll get a kick out of it now, but the rpg industry ain't the movie/game/music industry. It's small and most of it can't afford to loose your dollar. If you don' t buy their stuff now, there might not be any money for a decent product next year...

Speaking of out-of-print books going for ridiculous prices on eBay, does anyone know any sites that have electronic copies of old 2E D&D books available for download? I used to buy from Svgames, but the last time I checked their site, they seemed to have stopped distributing things that aren't relatively recent.
 


scourger

Explorer
I don't do it; but mostly because I don't know how. I prefer a printed book to a pdf anyway, preferably a hardcover. So, if I were to have an electronic copy of a book I liked for a game I wanted to play then I would want to buy a hard copy. It's cheaper and better than printing. Its a deterrent to me to buy a pdf if I can only get a hard copy by printing it myself or at a print shop. I have purchased pdfs, but I have certainly bought many, many more hard copies of rpg materials. A pdf is just of little use to me at the gaming table.

I really like the way Great White Games (f/k/a Pinnacle Entertainment Group) markets their Savage World products for these reasons. A player's guide pdf that I can buy with a site license so that I can print for my players is very valuable to me. Of course, I could just put it on CD, but I choose to print multiple copies at greater personal expense. I don't print it at work because that is theft since my employer does not authorize it.

Just because I don't pay for something doesn't make it free. Somebody pays. I don't want it to be the people who keep me supplied with great games to play because they may stop making them if they can't make a living at it. Also, a corporation is owned by its shareholders--real people who lose real money if the corporation loses money.

This discussion reminds me of the closure of my FLGS a couple of years ago. People who gamed there, for free, complained that the prices were too high because they could get, for instance, a board game for sale in the store cheaper down the road at a big toy store or their wargaming figures cheaper though family in another country. These same genuises, including an employee, had the nerve to cut the FLGS out of sales and then brag about it while playing those games at that store. Now, the place is gone. It's sad, really. Sad and short-sighted.
 

John Q. Mayhem said:
You'd wouldn't want to game with someone who'd object to illegal .pdfs? How about someone who objected to gaming with stolen RPG books?

No, that's not what I wrote.

I wouldn't want to game with someone who is so anal about it that they would ban people from their games for it.
 

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