RPG Illegal File Sharing Hurts the Hobby

[Falkus]

So, if one player illegally downloads a product, brings it to the game, and his buddies decide, hey, that's cool, and 5 of them go out and buy it - 5 people who ordinarily would never even have heard of it - this HURTS the industry?

Why would they buy it when this friend of theirs has shown that it's cheaper to steal it?

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Why would they buy it when this friend of theirs has shown that it's cheaper to steal it?

First, who is to say that he tells them he downloaded it illegally?

2nd, would YOU then go and download it? Just because one person is willing to go and get it illegally, doesn't mean others will. If your neighbor steals a pair of shoes and you like those shoes, it doesn't mean you'll go steal a pair, too.

 

[Bardsandsages]

It does my heart good to hear so many people condemning piracy

Going back to the Metallica thing. A lot of people seem to have the idea that it is OK to steal from the successful groups "because they don't miss it." But piracy doesn't hurt Metallica. It hurts the people who work at the assembly plant putting the CDs together. It hurts the hundreds of people involved in the design and production of the CD. Metallica will make their money on sponsorships and tours. But the people who find themselves without a job because there is no demand for legitimate CDs will be affected.

So, if one player illegally downloads a product, brings it to the game, and his buddies decide, hey, that's cool, and 5 of them go out and buy it - 5 people who ordinarily would never even have heard of it - this HURTS the industry?

This is an example of the wishy-washy ethics that allows piracy to continue. On a sheer practical level, the buddy who illegally downloaded it will just send said illegal download to his friends. I don't see them going out and buying it.

As a creative person, you have a right to control how your creation is presented and a right to make a profit off of your work. Piracy spits in the face of creative people who expend a great deal of their time making products.

Imagine if you worked 40 hours a week at your job, but at the end of the week only got paid for 37 hrs, because someone messed with the time sheets and stole some of your hours. Is this OK? Even if you eventually get paid for those missing hours, is it acceptable that someone else profited off of your work? Is it acceptable that you had to go through the hassle for fighting to get what is yours?

 

[Bagpuss]

You are jumping to conclusions.
My guess is that they decided to make the core rules freely available digitally for free, as they draw most income from supplement sales.

Now who is jumping to conclusions? WotC research showed that the core books sell better than any supplement and the same is most likely to be true of WoD core books.

The effect of sales lost is also different for a 200+ page constantly referenced high-quality hardcover than they are, say, for a 2-page unadorned Philip Reed pdf.

True, but then the PDF industry is a new market, not the same as the old fashioned printed media industry. I'm just saying piracy probably doesn't effect the print product sales as much as people claim. (Doesn't make it anymore legal, or moral however)

There are some products that may actually benefit from a free PDF, such as products that see little publicity and shelf-space, or products where production quality is important (such as highly-used reference books - i.e. core rules). Generally speaking, however, I am very doubtful.

I'm certain piracy does harm the sales of poor products since people can easily be forwarned. I'm also pretty certain to a lesser extent it can improve the sales of good products. Talking printed media here, PDF market is probably only harmed.

 

[Dragonblade]

So when i bring my pda and want to play a prestige class or use a feat from Lords of Darkness your going to say no unless i buy the book again (in paper this time)? Or would a credit card statement suffice? *sarcasm*

The SRD is perfectly legal and requireing to carry so many books to the table is just... Criminal... Could i declare my docters bill at your address when my back gives out?

Personally i prefer the oef (Original Electronic Format) to a scan of the book, if the book is well presented in paper (hardcover, color, nice layout, good art) i also buy the book. So if companies would just sell oef copies of their books then there would be no need to download a scan of a book (i already own in a paper format). Monte knows how it's done, White Wolf and recently a lot of other companies also have seen the light, still Wizards is lagging way behind with only seven of their books available in oef, AEG is even worse (no oef at all).

Please keep in mind that a lot of this stems form the day when a lot of books were out of print and were getting redicules prices at ebay, now a lot of that material is available for very reasonable prices (in electronic format). But like all things, a lot of people would rather spend their cash on booz, smoke, drugs, their other half, their next generation, instead of funding the 'hobby'. I personally don't care if it' s wrong or illegal, it's just not smart. Sure, you'll get a kick out of it now, but the rpg industry ain't the movie/game/music industry. It's small and most of it can't afford to loose your dollar. If you don' t buy their stuff now, there might not be any money for a decent product next year...

If you bring a printout of the portion of the SRD that's relevant to your character, or bring a copy of the SRD to the table in your laptop, or a legitimate copy of a PDF that I'm allowing, thats ok. The important thing is that you have a copy at the table that's available for the DM to review.

 

[dpmcalister]

Like likuidice I use p2p PDFs to look through a product before deciding whether to buy it or not. Through this process I've sent a similiar amount of money in the last 18 months (around £200). I also like to have electronic copies of my roleplaying books so that I can just grab my laptop when I go to game, rather than half-a-dozen hardback books (something I think is reasonable).

Yes, I realise that what I do isn't legal but, again like likuidice, until publishers come up with an easier way to see inside their products for those of us who purchase online (because we don't have a FLGS) then I will continue to do so (hunkers down for the flame strikes...)

 

[Feathercircle]

Try www.rpgnow.com

...wow. I had absolutely no idea they had such a selection. Thanks Alzrius!

 

[JRRNeiklot]

It does my heart good to hear so many people condemning piracy




This is an example of the wishy-washy ethics that allows piracy to continue. On a sheer practical level, the buddy who illegally downloaded it will just send said illegal download to his friends. I don't see them going out and buying it.

So, are you saying you would download it (or accept an illegal download) just because a member of your group did? That sounds more like wishy washy ethics to me.

 

[Aus_Snow]

If your neighbor steals a pair of shoes and you like those shoes, it doesn't mean you'll go steal a pair, too.

True.

On the other hand, if that same neighbour lets the other person know (or reinforces the fact) that they can steal shoes "just like that", with impunity, from the comfort of their own home - anonymously, at that - I'd say the temptation might be increased somewhat for that person.

And, as is the case with a lot of other forms of illegal activity, the activities of one's peers will have a substantial influence on many a person's ethics.

 

[interwyrm]

I'm an entertainment lawyer who gets to see first hand what piracy does to artists and labels, primarily in the music industry.

That aside, lets just say I was appalled when I recently met a guy claiming to have over 1,000 illegal RPG PDFs.

Assuming he's using 1/10th of that, that's still 100 lost sales to him alone...and that doesn't count whatever he's passed along to others. I'm not into PDFs myself- I like hard copies- so I don't know what they cost- but I'll assume they cost $15/each on average. That comes to $1,500. If he does this long enough, he'll get himself into grand larceny range ($5k).

What does $1,500 mean? To his FLGS, the profit from that amount of sales pays an employee's weekly paycheck. The share of that that goes back to the publisher might be a goodly chunk of the company's monthly rent, or pays off an artist for his work on a project.

Wow... that's a terrible leap in logic. You assume that this person has $1,500 to spend on rpg books. I doubt it. As a poor poor college student who barely has enough for rent and utilities, let alone food, I know that, if I don't get something for free, I am not getting it at all. There are no lost sales with me. Someone else mentioned the 'advertising' aspect of filesharing. I have to admit that I go along with that line of thinking. Here's the thing. I have no expendable income. Therefore, I will not be buying books. However, the books are getting more exposure through me. This means that either I am having no effect or a positive effect on the industry.

Also, you have to understand that some people are just obsessive collectors. Some people want to have the 'complete set of all books put out by such and such company.' Can most people afford that? Do most people have spouses/significant others that would be ok with such an expenditure... I'm going to venture a guess and say no.

The difference between sharing/piracy and robbery is that when you share or pirate any kind of information, the person that you get it from still has it. When you steal something, the person you take it from no longer has it. If I go to a store and take Lords of Madness of the shelf and bring it home, the FLGS has now lost the cost of purchasing that book. If I pirate that book through p2p, and I wasn't going to buy it anyways, then no one has lost anything.

The real problem is if you have people that would otherwise buy a product, but will no longer do so because they can get it for free.

And as far as this hurting small publishers, I'm going to have to say that's probably a no. Check out any major p2p network. WoTC is pretty much the only thing being shared, although I think there is some Green Ronin, AEG, and Mongoose as well. Are those small?

Anyways, to make a long story short - 100% of pirated material is not lost sales.