RPG Piracy

[ConcreteBuddha]

1) Sigil---I agree with all of your points and your logical analysis of the situation. Especially the one about copyright owners sitting on copyrights for years after the material should have been in the public domain. Seriously, I think that material should go PD after 20 years, instead of 50, but that's just me. No one is going to murder an artist so they can use their material in twenty years.


2) I'm just thinking of something slightly off topic: A part of me feels that copying an idea is not immoral. (Not a huge part, I might add.)

"Stealing" is a word that I normally apply to "taking a real-world, concrete item that exists to the five senses from its current owner." I would like to know where in human evolution that the term "stealing" has changed from having the above definition, to including abstract ideas under the same umbrella. This may be a part of the problem. Humans may not be conditioned to seeing monetary value in abstract ideas. (Especially when most abstract ideas are free. Like this communication here.)

Whereas, humans are quite conditioned to believe that concrete items have value (food, land, water, heat, energy, toys).

Where it gets to a shade of grey is around the "services rendered" area. Most people would agree that plumbers, mechanics and teachers have value, and thus their services being worth money.

The most grey area (the one that doesn't come naturally) is where people pay for ideas. Afterall, words are generally not paid for (until one gets to college).

Example: Two-thousand years ago, one could not have stolen an idea. A loaf of bread, yes. A shiny gold bracelet? Yes. The Pythagorean Theorem, no. The words of the Old Testament? No.
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This is in no way attempting to rationalize the piracy of PDFs and MP3s. I just think that part of the problem deals with whether or not copying ideas should be immoral, if it is immoral, (and if it is), what to do about it.

 

[jdavis]

So whatever law is passed, you're okay with it. It is NOT immoral to disobey an unjust law. Not agreeing that downloading PDFs without paying for them is such a case, but there are cases where I do consider it acceptable. To replace a lost or stolen document or to obtain a convienent copy of materials I own.

They may not follow the letter of the law, but neither are thy immoral.



Another problem is that you cannot stop a determined person from breaking whatever protections you put in place. If it displays to the screen or goes to the printer, it can be copied to another file. There may be roadblocks, but if I can get the data I can copy it.

So all you achieve is inconvienencing your paying customers. You don't stop the pirates. And there's a lot of people (like me) that won't buy the product if its in a copy restricted format. If I can't back it up there's no sense in having it on my computer.

I am never ok with every law passed but you know what the more stuff is taken for any reason the more outrageous the harder companies will try to protect it. The Microsoft inititives are prime examples. A lot of people don't like the laws that are passed, I don't like my privacy invaded, but guess what, the more stuff that is stolen on line the easier we are making it for them to get the laws passed. Companies are never going to stop trying to protect themselves and they will continually seek more radical ways of protecting profits, they have the money to get the politicians they want and to push the laws they want, the internet community looks like a bunch of lazy thieves (whether they are or not it is real easy to make it look that way, there is no way to come out looking good when you are stealing stuff). Yes we are being railroaded to a place nobody wants but internet piracy isn't helping the cause, it is hurting it.

And yes replacing material you once owned with a Illegal copy is illeagal and immoral, the copy is illegal. I won't argue that scanning your books yourself for personal use is bad, it isn't but taking a illegal file and using it legally doesn't make the file anymore legal in the first place. Is buying a stolen car legal, you didn't steal it you paid for it but it was stolen to start with. Your theory falls apart when you say that laws against people stealing stuff is unjust. please tell me how taking somebody elses work without permission or paying for it is ok under any circumstance.

I already went into the fact that antitheft devices won't work in a earlier post, many of the best computer people in the world are hackers, They have the knowledge and the equipment and they live for this kind of stuff, somebody out there will break any antitheft device ever invented, normally within weeks. Who looses, us normal users who have to put up with invasive crap and stuff that makes everything bulkier and harder to use. Internet piracy is not fighting the good fight against a oppressive government it is forcing a government to become more oppresive and controlling to protect itself and the countries way of life, it's a capitalistic society, if the money stops flowing then it fails.

I really don't think the accepted goal is to stop piracy but to control it, to minimize the loss. Stopping piracy would be to expensive to be feasable. Once again it's the small buisnesses who will suffer the most, they don't have the profit margins to cover the losses.

 

[jdavis]

1) Sigil---I agree with all of your points and your logical analysis of the situation. Especially the one about copyright owners sitting on copyrights for years after the material should have been in the public domain. Seriously, I think that material should go PD after 20 years, instead of 50, but that's just me. No one is going to murder an artist so they can use their material in twenty years.


2) I'm just thinking of something slightly off topic: A part of me feels that copying an idea is not immoral. (Not a huge part, I might add.)

"Stealing" is a word that I normally apply to "taking a real-world, concrete item that exists to the five senses from its current owner." I would like to know where in human evolution that the term "stealing" has changed from having the above definition, to including abstract ideas under the same umbrella. This may be a part of the problem. Humans may not be conditioned to seeing monetary value in abstract ideas. (Especially when most abstract ideas are free. Like this communication here.)

Whereas, humans are quite conditioned to believe that concrete items have value (food, land, water, heat, energy, toys).

Where it gets to a shade of grey is around the "services rendered" area. Most people would agree that plumbers, mechanics and teachers have value, and thus their services being worth money.

The most grey area (the one that doesn't come naturally) is where people pay for ideas. Afterall, words are generally not paid for (until one gets to college).

Example: Two-thousand years ago, one could not have stolen an idea. A loaf of bread, yes. A shiny gold bracelet? Yes. The Pythagorean Theorem, no. The words of the Old Testament? No.
.
.
.
This is in no way attempting to rationalize the piracy of PDFs and MP3s. I just think that part of the problem deals with whether or not copying ideas should be immoral, if it is immoral, (and if it is), what to do about it.

This is a very good point and gets back to the reason it is so hard to stop people, they just don't see the difference. The vast majority of internet pirates would never think of going down to the local record store and shoplifting a CD, but stealing it online is different? Education and people standing up and saying it is wrong will do more to stop piracy than every device or law that is ever used or passed.

 

[jdavis]

Re: Re: RPG Piracy

Well, you saw how well this worked...

It's just too touchy of a subject. People just can't stop themselves.

 

[Numion]

I really don't think the accepted goal is to stop piracy but to control it, to minimize the loss. Stopping piracy would be to expensive to be feasable. Once again it's the small buisnesses who will suffer the most, they don't have the profit margins to cover the losses.

And that's very much the wrong goal. The goal should not be to minimize losses; it should be to maximize profits. That's why I'm not in favor of draconian measures against piracy. First the industry (record, RPG, whatever) should make studies on how inet piracy affects sales. Not shoot first, ask questions later.

I still stand behind my assertation that the D&D core books are available in the open gaming foundation site for all practical purposes. WizarDru said that they are missing the one essential table; that's right, but is one table really a justification to buy $30 book in peoples minds?

 

[Roland Delacroix]

And that's very much the wrong goal. The goal should not be to minimize losses; it should be to maximize profits. That's why I'm not in favor of draconian measures against piracy. First the industry (record, RPG, whatever) should make studies on how inet piracy affects sales. Not shoot first, ask questions later.

I still stand behind my assertation that the D&D core books are available in the open gaming foundation site for all practical purposes. WizarDru said that they are missing the one essential table; that's right, but is one table really a justification to buy $30 book in peoples minds?

Completely agree. If the XXAA spend half as much on development of new ideas as they did on trying to stop new tech and impose new laws, they would have a very profitable online setup already. A subscription service perhaps? Dunno, but they have the millions to invest in research.

Every time a revolutionary technology has reached it's advent the old apparatus has tried to halt it, using the same tactics old tactics. Of course it never works, otherwise we would still be on horseback.

 

[jdavis]

Completely agree. If the XXAA spend half as much on development of new ideas as they did on trying to stop new tech and impose new laws, they would have a very profitable online setup already. A subscription service perhaps? Dunno, but they have the millions to invest in research.

Every time a revolutionary technology has reached it's advent the old apparatus has tried to halt it, using the same tactics old tactics. Of course it never works, otherwise we would still be on horseback.

A big problem is that to the general public pirates and hackers (and that includes everyone who is involved in the illegal trade of files) have a very bad reputation and a negative connotation. The automobile had a bad reputation when it first came out too. A little respect for the businesses (at least the small buisnesses) and some cleaning up of the bad reputation, would go a long ways. Education would work well for both sides.

There are legal subscription services out there but they are generally inferior to getting the product for free, it's real hard to compete with free.

 

[DDK]

Re: Re: RPG Piracy

Well, you saw how well this worked...

Lol. I woke up a couple of hours ago and am just checked this thread now. I saw how many responses there were since I went to bed and though, "Wow, it's not closed. I'll have to go and post a 'pat on the back' to everybody for keeping on topic!" Then I read the new responses, lol.

So far I've garnered several core reasons from this thread as to why piracy is not stopped.

1) It's too expensive to track and prosecute pirates.

2) People will do it anyway so why bother.

3) The net and computers facilitate the easy copying and distribution of material.

If you ignore it, it only gets worse. It does NOT level out at some 'acceptable' level. By policing it, through advocating a solution, or by turning in those who you know are pirating, or demanding your government do something more, piracy WILL lessen.

Piracy hurts the hobby. You, yourself, may have justifications for doing it, but most people just steal because they can. And the net makes it very easy to get away with it and the attitude expressed by most people LETS them get away with it easily.

If there were extra efforts made, then piracy won't stop, but it WILL make peole think twice about it. I mean, in this thread alone there has been how many people who have blatently admitted stealing? In a world where there was some punishment or, at the very least, the THREAT of punishment, such would not be the case.

Therefore I think the onus isn't on the individual but on the government and the organizations who don't bother to do anything about it. Sure, this is an unfair situation, however by not policing the problem, they are essentially supporting it and therefore have little right to complain. Like I said, that may be not fair, but I believe that's how it is.

Form a lobby group. Write a letter to your ombudsman or whatever equivalent you have in your country. Dob in abusers of the law. Don't let it creep into your gaming sessions. Don't do it yourself and maybe with the threat of recrimination, the problem will lessen. As the issue stands now, though, these people are getting away scott free because we're LETTING THEM.

 

[Tyberious Funk]

And pirated RPGs have a major problem that pirated music doesn't - PDFs just plain suck to read. People will always buy a print version of a product, as long as it's readily available and reasonably priced, because it's far more convenient. The trouble is, RPG companies are starting to charge more and more and more for smaller and smaller products. It's driving people to piracy and secondary markets (ie, used stuff).

Agreed. Some people simply don't mind breaking the law... but most of us are pretty law abiding. People tend towards the grey market when the costs of purchasing a product legitimately start to overwhelmingly exceed to cost of the grey market alternative. And when I use the term 'cost' I am refering to the total economic cost which might include things like the time taken to download an illegal copy, paper to print it out, getting access to a high-speed printer, potential risk in getting caught etc versus purchase price of legitimate printed version, time taken getting to the gaming store, risk in buying a crummy game that you didn't actually like etc Consumers are always looking for value, and when they find greater value in piracy, they will tend to pursue it.

I'm not trying to justify piracy, just explain why some people do it. In the case of record companies, I think they could alter their business models to give greater consideration to the online community... make it more desirable to purchase legitimate mp3s than it is to go through the bother of finding something on napster. For gaming companies it is a bit more difficult because of the tighter margins and lower volumes... once again though, I think the solution is a slightly different business model.

Looking at computer games and the software market... gaming companies could offer certain value-add services to registered, legitimate users, eg, updates, erratas and FAQs could only be available to registered purchasers. WotC in particular, have a wealth of information that could only be made available to purchasers as a 'reward' or added benefit, such as the web enhancements for the splat books.

Although I can certainly understand why the game designers on the board would feel this way, but getting all huffy and indignent wont solve the problem, nor will the multitude of ernest, but ultimately unworkable suggestions on copywrite policing. Technology has created a societal shift and we are probably better off simply finding ways to work around it.

 

[DDK]

Education and people standing up and saying it is wrong will do more to stop piracy than every device or law that is ever used or passed.

I probably didn't make it very clear in my last post and this thread is moving too fast for me to go back and edit it without being unfair so here's another post.

Basically, the above was what I was trying to get at in my previous post. The attitude that it's futile and you shouldn't bother doing anything is what makes it so easy for these people to get away with it. Doing ANYTHING, even if it is just pointing out in a thread like this that piracy hurts the hobby, is at least better than doing nothing.