RPG Theory- The Limits of My Language are the Limits of My World

[Umbran]

If you watch Rent with most people today, the reaction you get is pretty uniform- Why don't they just pay the damn rent?

Different times and all that.

Heck, Benny offers to let them stay without paying rent! He offers to improve their living and working conditions and let them stay without paying rent!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Heck, Benny offers to let them stay without paying rent! He offers to improve their living and working conditions and let them stay without paying rent!

Sometimes, I think the difference between the 90s and today is this-

90s- "Eff you, I won't do what you tell me! I'll never sell out to The Man!"

Today- "You would be so lucky for The Man to notice you! Tell me where and when to sell out, and I'll be there with bells on!"

edit- just to be clear, I am not making fun of people today. Different times.

 

[Umbran]

Sometimes, I think the difference between the 90s and today is this-

90s- "Eff you, I won't do what you tell me! I'll never sell out to The Man!"

Today- "You would be so lucky for The Man to notice you! Tell me where and when to sell out, and I'll be there with bells on!"

But that was also the 60s, the 70s, maybe not so much the 80s, but yeah, the 90s... I mean, "The Man" is a term from back in the 50's.

 

[gorice]

I'm sorry I alluded to the Forge, however indirectly. It always ruins threads.

Getting back to the OP, I'd like to read The Elusive Shift when I get the chance. I looked at an article or two in the academic journal, and immediately closed them, since they committed what I think is a cardinal sin when it comes to RPG theory: carelessly importing concepts from videogames. Literally every academic work that talks about TTRPGs seems to do this! And it's always those accursed MMOs! Why!?

 

[FrogReaver]

We should really avoid making this personal. Try to keep the high ground, because you make good points. Use the blocking features if you need to.

Just thought I’d add for others. I am fairly ignore/blocking adverse which has harmed my time on this forum.

Now I’ve configured my block:ignore functionality to be 1 way ignore where it’s only me that can’t see others posts when I ignore. I also have the option in thread to click to see posts I’ve ignored which I find I often have no need or desire to do.

The cool thing is that even if I click and read them the extra step and seeing them on my ignore list helps remind me that engaging with that poster is likely to just end in my frustration and so I’m much less prone to get into frustrating situations to begin with - while still having the ability if desired to read what they say and craft a response with this background in mind.

For me it’s been a great middle ground that aligns with my no block philosophy while serving as a tool to focus my attention and aid in my memory.

For any other ignore or block averse users I highly recommend trying it this way. It does help.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

But that was also the 60s, the 70s, maybe not so much the 80s, but yeah, the 90s... I mean, "The Man" is a term from back in the 50's.

I was being specific to the reaction to Rent.

I saw it when it first came out (okay, technically it was its first road production) and I read it, in context, as it was intended. On the other hand, I saw it again just before the pandemic and while the younger people I was with enjoyed the music, they could not even understand the plot (w/r/t the rent, and Benny being the villain). At all.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I'm sorry I alluded to the Forge, however indirectly. It always ruins threads.

It's not your fault.

I think it was Malthus who first remarked about the inevitability of things. Then again, I'm pretty sure that Engels replied, "You are wrong, your momma smells bad, and your reasoning is as poor as you claim the population to be. #FIRST11!!!! #PWNED #TOOLOFOPPRESION

I'll add this to the running total of new maxims!

1. Ancalagon's Apothegm: If you ever write something about how awesome people are, they will immediately prove you wrong.
@Ancalagon

2. Gorice's Gospel: All conversations about TTRPG theory on enworld inevitably become arguments about the Forge.

Getting back to the OP, I'd like to read The Elusive Shift when I get the chance. I looked at an article or two in the academic journal, and immediately closed them, since they committed what I think is a cardinal sin when it comes to RPG theory: carelessly importing concepts from videogames. Literally every academic work that talks about TTRPGs seems to do this! And it's always those accursed MMOs! Why!?

Because that's where the money is. (Speaking of Engels ...)

Seriously, though. When that much money is spent on triple-A games, and on creating and maintaining MMOs, then you get a lot of work done on the practical aspects of what makes it "good" and "worth playing." In other words, the design and theory aspects of them. Because of the relative paucity of such work in the TTRPG field, a lot of the concepts get borrowed.

IMO. I think @Aldarc has mentioned this as well.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Is there an element of observer bias here? I don't regard 5e as the RPG around which all other discussions orbit. For me, the canonical RPGs for comparison are Gygax's AD&D and Moldvay Basic; RQ; and CoC - the classics - and then AW as a modern classic. But I also like talking about systems as systems. My experience is that it tends to be those who predominantly play 5e D&D who are not happy to talk about less widely played RGS on their own terms.

I tend to agree. Once you get away from a D&D-centric space like ENWorld, most discussion of RPGs in contrast doesn't mention any incarnation of D&D, other than to the degree its lumped in with other traditional games. This wasn't always true--early in the hobby a lot of discussion of new games were framed in contrast to what they did that D&D doesn't--but for most people outside the D&D-sphere (in the sense they don't do it or its not their primary game choice) that fight is long won as far as they're concerned, and they've moved on to working on other issues beyond whether there's better ways to represent characters than classes or better ways to represent armor than AC. It doesn't even come up (and even when it does, its in a kind of "of course" sort of way).

 

[Thomas Shey]

Of course talking about a way to game you don't enjoy or even understand the pleasures of is perilous. Edwards himself said D&D causes brain damage, and there are people who've never forgiven him for it, and now write off anything and everything he says and has said--which is plausibly a mistake, but I think an understandable one.

Even here, so many of the recurring arguments seem to be because people do not just fail to understand the differences in how others play, but the differences in why. Or that, for instance, someone else could try the way I play and reject it--then the way I play is (of course) perfect for me. One can comprehend the mechanics of a game and still fail to understand its players.

Yeah. One of the useful functions of the discussion back in RGFA back in the day was it conveying to the participants that other people not only genuinely could want different things than they did, but that it was not a critique of what they wanted that they did. David Berkman indirectly did everyone a favor by being blind to this truth.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

Before the usual battle lines get drawn too deeply, help me understand something.

@Snarf Zagyg in your OP, referring to another thread you had started, you said:

Another thread, ostensibly about one thing (discussing the division of narrative authority within 5e) turned into another thing (jargon-filled general discussion about RPG theory).

How is that second thing really all that different or unexpected or undesirable, compared to thing one? "Division of narrative authority within 5e" is about as complex and involved as it gets, so why wouldn't that wind up getting into theory, and especially theory that uses other games and their approaches for context? To me that would be like wanting to discuss narrative point of view in James Bond movies, and being aghast when someone talks about how that's handled in le Carre or Bourne movies, or how spy shows and miniseries do it differently. Or even pulling examples and techniques from totally different genres. Isn't that just how discussions and analyses go, if they don't peter out? Analysis of horror movies has been enriched by analysis of comedy movies (since they sometimes share a surprising number of approaches). Indie film movements have changed the way Hollywood movies are edited and paced, and digging into those relationships can deepen appreciation of those mainstream movies, even if someone finds those lesser-watched films aren't their thing. I can't think of a discussion I've had about anything creative that, given enough time and depth, hasn't started to draw connections and context from other works. That's what professors do, what written criticism does--I'd argue it's how humans understand creative output and activities, and the world more generally, through informed comparisons. How is doing that with RPGs a problem?

Or is this really just about the challenges posed by jargon?

If that's what this is about, I think we can have a more focused discussion, though maybe sort of a boring one: Jargon, y/n? But right now it feels like you've started another thread that's almost tailor-made--based on the length of the OP and choice of topic but also lack of specific stance--to trigger the exact dynamic you're criticizing.

To me, that other thread (which is still going) is contentious but interesting. But you bailed out of that one--as is your right, obviously--early on. So here's what I want to know, in all sincerity: What sort of discussion do you want to have, or that you think is worthwhile? Or was this more an airing of frustration that's wound up doing what frustrates you in the first place?

If I didn't know better, I'd think you might be a master of instigating food fights and then appearing after the fact to decry the terrible mess that others have made. I don't necessarily think that's what's happening, but I'm not Not seeing a certain twinkle in your eye...