RPG Theory- The Limits of My Language are the Limits of My World

[Aldarc]

This, times one billion. Both designers and players of videogames are so much more comfortable talking about design and preference than TTRPG players, and no-one is ever accused of being a slob or an elitist for saying they like sandbox RPGs or soulslikes or whatever (well, maybe the latter). Is our problem intrinsic to the medium? I suspect it's more of an historical accident, but I don't really know.

The snobbery is there, but it's also frequently gendered or coded in things like "casual gamer" or "hardcore gamer" or "PC vs. console gamer." In the CRPG space, one of the big divides is the matter of Real Time with Pause vs. Turn-Based action. I recall seeing debates about this in both Torment: Tides of Numenera and Baldur's Gate 3.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Having said the above, 'revealed preference' is one of those miraculous tautologies that makes me want to punch an economist.

That's what you're saying with your words. But since you aren't going around punching economists, we all know what your revealed preferences are telling us.

Economist-lover.

 

[Malmuria]

Skimming the discussion, but in terms of avant garde vs popular games...why not both? I have loved exploring and introducing people to different kinds of games over the past couple of years. In my group, I'm actually the one pushing us to stop playing 5e and CoC and try new things, whether OSR games or Blades or Ten Candles or whatever. I play with a lot of new-to-rpg players, so I get to see how they experience these different systems and styles of gaming (and the things they emphasize are very interesting and very different than the way those various games would be classified in this forum).

As I see it, the issue of accessibility is less about playing a variety of games, and more about the context of discussion about them. There should absolutely be a place where people who share the same vocabulary can talk about games, but when we are in mixed company, it's good to be mindful that not everyone has access to that vocabulary nor the same range of play experiences. I'm as guilty of this as anyone else: I remember years ago reading rpg forums and getting annoyed by people listing off what to me were obscure games, mistaking their enthusiasm for hipsterism. Now I do that sometimes.

With regards to the forge specifically, I find some of the ideas provocative and useful, but, as I expressed at length in the other thread, I ultimately find it to be a closed and self-referential system. More open and approachable for me is the play advice in games like dungeon world and blades in the dark (perhaps because game books are written by people who actually want people to play their games). I am skeptical of the way the theory operates, rather than of the fact that it is theory.

The discussions on OSR and FKR discords feel more like a vanguard to me at this point: there is a spirit of free form experimentation and engagement with speculation that I find very appealing. It's less concerned with transcendental categories and more with taking things apart in a playful way. The discussion of FKR here struck me as in fact somewhat reactionary in its skepticism of the new hotness, but that's just my perception.

Finally, the more general cultural context should be noted. While there might be avant gardes and populisms within the ttrpg scene, our little hobby of playing games is probably generally considered to be camp pop culture by most people. "Nerd culture" in various forms has gained more legitimacy in recent years, but I think that's be cause there has been a reevaluation of the importance of popular culture more generally. In fact, if academic criticism takes up the subject of ttrpgs more seriously, it won't be from a formalist analysis of gameplay, but rather what games offer as a social practice.

 

[loverdrive]

People are stupid, and they don't know any better, so they just play D&D because they are stupid. Which is, roughly paraphrased, what you are saying. If that's true, then that is worth examining. Just like it's worth examining why people eat McDonald's when there are better options. You can't just assert something- you have to look at the evidence and examine what it means. Or, to go back to my example, "People who like hip hop and rock and pop music don't have any real preferences. They would listen to opera if they just knew better." As a general rule, the "people are stupid and don't know better" argument generally isn't a great one. IMO.

Well, D&D is quite different from music. Or food. Or videogames.

I don't think there's a single one hip-hop enthusiast out there who never ever heard anything but hip-hop. You just can't simultaneously be enthusiastic about a genre of music and never be exposed to other genres. People who like hip-hop like like hip-hop because they truly like hip-hop. In order to like hip-hop, you need to have a taste in music — you really need to know what you actually like and what you don't.

You can be a D&D enthusiast, run and play it for gazillion years and never really be exposed to other games outside of forum talk. It's certainly within the realm of possibility.

TTRPGs, unlike pretty much anything I can think of is a very freeform activity with barely any obvious limitations. Everything is possible! Fantasy Vietnam? Sure. Carefully crafted story? Possible! D&D in SPAAAAACE? Yeah, you can do that. I won't say it's a good idea, but it's possible, if you're brave enough.

In other words, it's quite hard to get stuck in a genre of music, but it's very easy to get stuck in whatever is your first RPG.

Many people I've talked to (or just observed talking to other people), both IRL and on the Internet don't really want D&D specifically, they just want a roleplaying game. When someone tells you a story how they played a 5E campaign without a single combat and how much fun they had investigating a murder mystery or being spooked in a haunted house or just talking in-character or whatever as opposed to boringly slaying goblins, question "then what was the point of using D&D 5E ruleset?" immediately pops to my mind.

 

[payn]

Well, D&D is quite different from music. Or food. Or videogames.

I don't think there's a single one hip-hop enthusiast out there who never ever heard anything but hip-hop. You just can't simultaneously be enthusiastic about a genre of music and never be exposed to other genres. People who like hip-hop like like hip-hop because they truly like hip-hop. In order to like hip-hop, you need to have a taste in music — you really need to know what you actually like and what you don't.

You can be a D&D enthusiast, run and play it for gazillion years and never really be exposed to other games outside of forum talk. It's certainly within the realm of possibility.

TTRPGs, unlike pretty much anything I can think of is a very freeform activity with barely any obvious limitations. Everything is possible! Fantasy Vietnam? Sure. Carefully crafted story? Possible! D&D in SPAAAAACE? Yeah, you can do that. I won't say it's a good idea, but it's possible, if you're brave enough.

In other words, it's quite hard to get stuck in a genre of music, but it's very easy to get stuck in whatever is your first RPG.

Many people I've talked to (or just observed talking to other people), both IRL and on the Internet don't really want D&D specifically, they just want a roleplaying game. When someone tells you a story how they played a 5E campaign without a single combat and how much fun they had investigating a murder mystery or being spooked in a haunted house or just talking in-character or whatever as opposed to boringly slaying goblins, question "then what was the point of using D&D 5E ruleset?" immediately pops to my mind.

There is definitely a crowd of "D&D can do anything, so why play anything else?". One part is you can always find players, another is a lot folks dont want to learn new systems. I dont fully understand it, but you are right its not like this in most other hobbies.

 

[loverdrive]

This is particularly pronounced if you go into a dedicated community to a game system; I've seen it in two or three I was involved with over the years. But yes, its what I saw someone refer to (talking about the Fate community some years ago) as "Its apparently both a floor wax and a desert topping." I suspect its because people who come from a particular angle, where a specific system literally serves all their needs pretty well, have trouble imagining it not doing so for others, and therefor assume any question in this regard is a veiled attack.

Fate in particular is kind of weird. Like, it actually can do anything. Any genre or even a specific piece of fiction you want to emulate, Fate will work and would be faithful to the original inspiration. Even something silly like emulating the process of playing a video game: "Hey, you are at a point-blank range and there is no freaking chance in hell that you would miss... Unfortunately, we're playing *X-Com, so, of course you miss! Damn your luck".

So I can certainly understand people who talk about Fate as some kind of magical, one size fits all solution.

The fact that some people just want the game to feel like being in the world, as opposed to just produce an appropriate fiction often slips mind of people who are chiefly concerned with fiction.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Well, D&D is quite different from music. Or food. Or videogames.

Sure. It is different. But then again, food is different from music. Art is different from videogames.

I don't think there's a single one hip-hop enthusiast out there who never ever heard anything but hip-hop. You just can't simultaneously be enthusiastic about a genre of music and never be exposed to other genres. People who like hip-hop like like hip-hop because they truly like hip-hop. In order to like hip-hop, you need to have a taste in music — you really need to know what you actually like and what you don't.

See, I don't agree here. You just assume others are worldly. But as the old joke goes, "I like both types of music, country AND western."

There are tons of people out there that just like small slices of things. They don't need to experience all the music in the world to know what they like. They don't need no fancy cuisine or NEW YORK CITY salsa to like the food they eat.

The giveaway is what you wrote- "you need to have a taste in music" Sure, if you want to erect barriers and assume that some people are better than others, and everyone would like the same things if they just had the same impeccable taste ... why not?

...that never ends well.

Many people I've talked to (or just observed talking to other people), both IRL and on the Internet don't really want D&D specifically, they just want a roleplaying game. When someone tells you a story how they played a 5E campaign without a single combat and how much fun they had investigating a murder mystery or being spooked in a haunted house or just talking in-character or whatever as opposed to boringly slaying goblins, question "then what was the point of using D&D 5E ruleset?" immediately pops to my mind.

So many people conjure these "many people." I mean, okay? Like ... sure. Why not. In today's day and age when you can't even scroll around on Roll20 without seeing other TTRPGs listed, no one even knows about other games? Or sees them in Amazon or the local store when they buy their D&D books?

Again, it's weird. It's the feeling that people just don't know better, and if they did, they would choose differently. It's possible, for some people. There are people that play D&D and migrate to other games. But there's also a lot of people (the proverbial "many people") that do try other games, and end up back playing D&D, right?

I truly don't understand this reasoning. Let me correct that- I do understand it. I do understand why people might say, "If it wasn't for those meddling kids and the stupidity of the average gamer, {insert favorite game here} would be more popular, not D&D! It's BETTER!"

I understand that, but I fail to understand why people aren't more curious as to the success of D&D. At a certain point, who are the fools - the people who keep claiming it's a stupid game for stupid people who don't know better, or the people making the money?

In other words, if a company is making a game with the goal of being broadly popular, and constantly iterates on that, and constantly surveys the user base on that, then maybe there is something to it? Perhaps asking people what they want, and giving it to them, might account for some measure of the popularity?

 

[loverdrive]

There are tons of people out there that just like small slices of things. They don't need to experience all the music in the world to know what they like. They don't need no fancy cuisine or NEW YORK CITY salsa to like the food they eat.

And these people probably don't fancy themselves as salsa affectionados or treat their love for spaghetti as a part of their identity.

The giveaway is what you wrote- "you need to have a taste in music" Sure, if you want to erect barriers and assume that some people are better than others, and everyone would like the same things if they just had the same impeccable taste ... why not?

This wasn't what I was getting at. I don't care if their taste is good or bad or ugly.

In order to be a hip-hop fan and not just a dude who sometimes listens to hip-hop because that's what his weird friend who carries a BT speaker with them all the time plays at house parties, one needs to know what they like.

One can be a D&D fan, wear a D20 necklace and a wear this label as an identity without knowing about other games.

So many people conjure these "many people." I mean, okay? Like ... sure. Why not. In today's day and age when you can't even scroll around on Roll20 without seeing other TTRPGs listed, no one even knows about other games? Or sees them in Amazon or the local store when they buy their D&D books?

It's at least more than what I can count with fingers of one hand. I have only nine grades of education, I can't count. One, two, three, four, five, many!

Jokes aside, just being aware that game X exists and experiencing it are two vastly different things.

Again, it's weird. It's the feeling that people just don't know better, and if they did, they would choose differently. It's possible, for some people. There are people that play D&D and migrate to other games. But there's also a lot of people (the proverbial "many people") that do try other games, and end up back playing D&D, right?

I have no questions for people who like D&D specifically. I like my 5E, I like my B/X and I'm the gal who just can't shut her mouth about other games.

It's those who like something that D&D doesn't really deliver and don't care for things it excels at, yet they still chew this cactus, I have questions for.

If someone doesn't like initiative-based combat with minis, doesn't care for charop and your damage output, constantly fudges dice to keep PCs and BBEGs from dying in an anticlimactic way, tries to "fix" totally unrealistic HP progression with houserules and yet still play 5E, I can't explain it by any other reason that they don't know any better.

I was like that many years ago. I just couldn't understand why in the nine hells would I need to learn a new system, if I spent so much time learning 3.5E and could do absolutely anything with it.

 

[gorice]

That's what you're saying with your words. But since you aren't going around punching economists, we all know what your revealed preferences are telling us.

Economist-lover.

I am defeated.

I also realise that, as a few people have pointed out, 'nobody calls people slobs or elitists' was far too strong a statement re: videogames. I know full well how much snobbery and gatekeeping there can be in gaming subcultures! The important difference, perhaps, is that people who play videogames have both a much richer vocabulary to describe them and a greater willingness to deploy it. Part of this is driven by marketing, but you can also go and watch a stream from something like GDX where devs lay out the theory behind how they designed something, jargon included, and the comments will be full of laypeople talking about how cool that is. Videogamers aren't allergic to jargon; they seem to embrace it when they find it useful.

If it were in my power to create a standard vocabulary for TTRPGs and enforce it as the RPG Police, I'd seriously consider it! Unfortunately, I don't think that will work.

[edit to add] re: people being stupid, I don't think that's the question. To me, it's an issue of whether preference is intrinsic or learned. People aren't stupid, but we're all more or less ignorant.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Fate in particular is kind of weird. Like, it actually can do anything. Any genre or even a specific piece of fiction you want to emulate, Fate will work and would be faithful to the original inspiration. Even something silly like emulating the process of playing a video game: "Hey, you are at a point-blank range and there is no freaking chance in hell that you would miss... Unfortunately, we're playing *X-Com, so, of course you miss! Damn your luck".

The problem is that doesn't say "It can do anything". The latter also involves what the players and GM get out of it, and some things Fate (at least without massive reconstruction) can't do. But people answering about it either don't consider that or consider those things invalid.

So I can certainly understand people who talk about Fate as some kind of magical, one size fits all solution.

The fact that some people just want the game to feel like being in the world, as opposed to just produce an appropriate fiction often slips mind of people who are chiefly concerned with fiction.

Okay, so you do get the difference.