RPG Writing and Design Needs a Paradigm Shift

[Zaukrie]

I think walls of text are bad.....and layout is important. I feel like big companies kind of get stuck in "this is how it is done" mode and we get stuck with traditional layout and text styles, and aren't presented with better layout and text very often. I think this is especially true with things where WOTC (as an example) is worried about edge cases, instead of what 99% of tables do.

I'd like a lot more brevity, like what MCDM did with saving throws in their Flee Mortals book....but I don't expect it.

Take, for example, the new sheets on roll20 and Foundry for players....they look kind of like the paper sheets for some reason! DnDBeyond, otoh, has a tab for actions so you can see your actions, bonus actions, and reactions so you don't have to remember what's what. I get we are talking mostly about books/pdfs here, but I'm amazed DnDBeyond has this, and two companies coming out with new versions, that SEE THIS functionality, instead stuck with recreating the paper sheets to a large degree (this is an example of getting stuck in tradition, imo).

We see this in books all the time, and their PDFs. I don't expect WotC to change, but I wish they would consider how things appear and ease of use/reading more than they sometimes do (for golly's sake, don't have A RULE across multiple pages).

To be clear, my products are guilty of this sometimes....but I'm no layout expert....

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I know this is happening in small corners of the indie scene, and some more well known games are starting to adopt alternate ways of presenting information, but mainstream publishers still seem buried in the past when it comes to TTRPG presentation.

Giant books full of walls of text with important information buried in questionable prose is no longer an acceptable way to present a game to an audience. The industry needs a paradigm shift in design -- both system, and visual. They need to stop paying by the word and start paying by the hour. they need to stop treating games like books and treat them like manuals. They need to leverage technology and techniques from other industries and make accessibility a primary goal in production.

I know I have ranted about this before and will likely do so again, so my apologies for evangelizing in this way.

Well, my game is a bit different. It is all authored in a DSL that allows both HTML (and presumably other forms of markup like PDF or whatever if I feel like doing the work) to be generated but ALSO allows rendering all the relevant mechanical bits into database form. Even the HTML gets a full TOC and index automagically. I could render it all into the form of a WIKI style thing too if I felt like it. At this point I can just basically write rules, as long as I follow the custom markup, which I can also author as I see fit. I've got basic rendering of feats, equipment, attributes, etc. into a character sheet, although that was a good bit more work to actually write the logic for. The point is, at this point adding feats, items, boons, afflictions, creatures, etc. is all pretty trivial in an infrastructure sense, and the resulting data can be used in a lot of ways.

I don't see why game publishers cannot achieve these sorts of results, except they do require a decent amount of technical proficiency and some cleverness at designing workflows so its practical to do. I also freely admit that if your goal is to put together high quality printed material, it is going to be a hard thing to do! I mean, creating a professional DTP type output would be pretty damned hard.

 

[Laurefindel]

automagically.

don’t know if it’s a typo or if it’s intentional, but I love that word!

 

[J.Quondam]

Well, my game is a bit different. It is all authored in a DSL that allows both HTML (and presumably other forms of markup like PDF or whatever if I feel like doing the work) to be generated but ALSO allows rendering all the relevant mechanical bits into database form. Even the HTML gets a full TOC and index automagically. I could render it all into the form of a WIKI style thing too if I felt like it. At this point I can just basically write rules, as long as I follow the custom markup, which I can also author as I see fit. I've got basic rendering of feats, equipment, attributes, etc. into a character sheet, although that was a good bit more work to actually write the logic for. The point is, at this point adding feats, items, boons, afflictions, creatures, etc. is all pretty trivial in an infrastructure sense, and the resulting data can be used in a lot of ways.

I don't see why game publishers cannot achieve these sorts of results, except they do require a decent amount of technical proficiency and some cleverness at designing workflows so its practical to do. I also freely admit that if your goal is to put together high quality printed material, it is going to be a hard thing to do! I mean, creating a professional DTP type output would be pretty damned hard.

What do "DSL" and "DTP" mean here?

edit: Ah, "DTP" is probably "desktop publishing"? But I'm still stuck on "DSL".

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

What do "DSL" and "DTP" mean here?

Oh, DSL is a bit of Developer jargon, meaning 'domain specific language', which is to say some sort of 'computer language' that is meant to solve one specific type of problem. So, what I developed deals with authoring structured data in ways that allow it to be processed as required, say to make an HTML document out of it, or a database, etc. all from the same text.

DTP is just an acronym for Desktop Publishing. DTP programs are things like Page Maker or whatnot that are a bit like Word Processors, except intended to produce very precisely formatted and organized printed material (actually these days they output PDFs of a specific type that is optimized for cutting plates for offset printing and such).

So, in things like publishing (as well as software development) workflow is really the big issue. You need to be able to assemble data (text, images, business logic, whatever) and construct your final product (a book, a program, etc.) However it also has to be reproducible and possible to easily make corrections, maintain version control, automatically create related artifacts like indices, SRDs, etc. Those workflows also are going to have to allow for many people to work at the same time on the same project etc. Structuring the work on projects like this is actually MORE difficult, or can be, than doing the work itself. It definitely requires a lot of expertise and care.

 

[R_J_K75]

Oh, DSL is a bit of Developer jargon, meaning 'domain specific language', which is to say some sort of 'computer language' that is meant to solve one specific type of problem. So, what I developed deals with authoring structured data in ways that allow it to be processed as required, say to make an HTML document out of it, or a database, etc. all from the same text.

DTP is just an acronym for Desktop Publishing. DTP programs are things like Page Maker or whatnot that are a bit like Word Processors, except intended to produce very precisely formatted and organized printed material (actually these days they output PDFs of a specific type that is optimized for cutting plates for offset printing and such).

So, in things like publishing (as well as software development) workflow is really the big issue. You need to be able to assemble data (text, images, business logic, whatever) and construct your final product (a book, a program, etc.) However it also has to be reproducible and possible to easily make corrections, maintain version control, automatically create related artifacts like indices, SRDs, etc. Those workflows also are going to have to allow for many people to work at the same time on the same project etc. Structuring the work on projects like this is actually MORE difficult, or can be, than doing the work itself. It definitely requires a lot of expertise and care.

I just failed my Int and Wis saving throws simultaneously.

 

[GrimCo]

I love combination of rules and lore intertwined, but i wouldn't mind if rules are precise, concise and layout is logical. I read enough technical manuals in my professional life don't want them in my free time as well. Also, like people said, fair number of rulebooks are not actually used at the table, but only read for either fun or for harvesting ideas. What i would like is option of free downloadable pdf with purchased book, and PDF being stripped to core, all rules, bookmarked and indexed with hyperlinks for quick referencing in game. We stopped using books at the table long ago, we just use SRD most of the time.

 

[Reynard]

People seem to be assuming that concise rules have to be presented in a dry and boring manner. You all need to get out more.

 

[J.Quondam]

Oh, DSL is a bit of Developer jargon, meaning 'domain specific language', which is to say some sort of 'computer language' that is meant to solve one specific type of problem. So, what I developed deals with authoring structured data in ways that allow it to be processed as required, say to make an HTML document out of it, or a database, etc. all from the same text.

DTP is just an acronym for Desktop Publishing. DTP programs are things like Page Maker or whatnot that are a bit like Word Processors, except intended to produce very precisely formatted and organized printed material (actually these days they output PDFs of a specific type that is optimized for cutting plates for offset printing and such).

So, in things like publishing (as well as software development) workflow is really the big issue. You need to be able to assemble data (text, images, business logic, whatever) and construct your final product (a book, a program, etc.) However it also has to be reproducible and possible to easily make corrections, maintain version control, automatically create related artifacts like indices, SRDs, etc. Those workflows also are going to have to allow for many people to work at the same time on the same project etc. Structuring the work on projects like this is actually MORE difficult, or can be, than doing the work itself. It definitely requires a lot of expertise and care.

Ah, thanks, very cool!

 

[Reynard]

I always wondered if you could create a site/app that could create custom PDFs. Like, you play a fighter using Pathfinder (where most of the rules are Open). Could someone design a tool that with a few clicks and check boxes you could print out a "fighter's PHB"?