RPGing and imagination: a fundamental point

But anyway, I said once I don't see a point in continuing on this train of thought. Theres clearly a lot of emotional baggage wrapped up in calling ODND an RPG and I genuinely don't care to keep trying to find ways to restate my thoughts for people that clearly don't have any interest nor desire in hearing them.

Im not one to take a post-truth attitude, so this just isn't ever going to be a productive conversation. I think we can return to the topic at hand.

Mod Note:
Your attempts to try to define folks into the Out-group, dismiss their arguments as emotional, and imply that other people don't care about facts are all problems. These are all incredibly dismissive and insulting.

You won't have to worry about restating your arguments, as you won't be posting in this thread any longer.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Sure, and that may say something about Gygax's changing views and techniques of play. I just don't think it means that everyone who started playing in 1979 went right out and played like the text in the AD&D DMG necessarily. Most of them probably started out tentatively playing in something closer to the 1974 style, though it would depend on the rest of the group and the individual of course.
I'm not so sure. If they started with the 1e PH as their guide they'd have seen some introductory notes about how you "become" your character, etc.; a tone that wasn't really there in 1974.
Oh, I think people are less careful and precise in their speech though. I mean, I might say "I do it" or "Takeo does it" or even elaborate in first person fashion on my state of mind and such. It all depends. I personally was never all that wrapped up in stylistic considerations of play. I'm not even sure that these modes of speech actually tell us much about what someone is doing in play.
I'm used to players saying "I" but meaning their character, if the context makes sense for such.

As DM, during play I also only use character names rather than player names when possible, even when speaking to the player. Thus, were Takeo a character in my game it'd be "Takeo, roll me a d20 for perception" rather than "Abdul, roll me a d20 for Takeo's perception".
 

In the quote upthread from Men & Magic, we see "Before they begin, players must decide what role they will play in the campaign, humans or otherwise, fighter, cleric, or magic-user."

This is echoed in Gygax's PHB, where (p 18) it says that "The approach you wish to take to the game, how you believe you can most successfully meet the challenges which it poses, and which role you desire to play are dictated by character class (or multi-class)."

I think these passages make it pretty clear that the core of the "role" in roleplaying is functional - what abilities does the player's character enjoy, in the fiction?
Different meanings of the word "role" and both applicable here: the character has a role in the party and the player plays a role as the character.
The character goals are all taken to be the same, namely, acquiring loot such that the player can gain levels by earning XP. This is why we see, in the PHB (p 106), the following:

Experience is the measure of a character's ability in his or her chosen profession, the character's class. . . .​
Gaining experience points through the acquisition of gold pieces and by slaying monsters might be questioned by some individuals as non-representative of how an actual character would become more able in his or her class. Admittedly, this is so . . . This is a game, however, a fantasy game, and suspension of disbelief is required. . . . While praying and religious-oriented acts are more properly the activities for which a cleric would gain experience points, this is not the stuff of exciting swords & sorcery adventure. So too, fighters need physical training and weapons practice, magic-users long hours of study in tomes of arcane lore, and thieves the repetition of their manual skills and discernitory prowess; but none of this is suitable to gaming. It is, therefore, discarded and subsumed as taking place on a character's "off hours".​

The DMG (p 86) similarly says that

Players who bolk at equating gold pieces to experience points should be gently but firmly reminded that in a game certain compromises must be made. While it is more "realistic" for clerics to study holy writings, pray, chant, practice self-discipline, etc. to gain experience, it would not make a playable game roll along. Similarly, fighters should be exercising, riding, smiting pelts, tilting at the lists, and engaging in weapons practice of various sorts to gain real expertise (experience); magic-users should be deciphering old scrolls, searching ancient tomes, experimenting alchemically, and so forth; while thieves should spend their off-hours honing their skills, "casing" various buildings, watching potential victims, and carefully planning their next "job". All very realistic but conducive to non-game boredom!​
Passages like these are a large part of why we ve-ery long ago dropped xp-for-gp; about 8 years later, 2e followed our lead and also dropped it. And the DMG passage very nicely describes my own rationale for how stay-at-home (a.k.a. non-adventuring) members of classes can and do slowly gain xp over time.
Of course, and somewhat contra Gygax, it is possible to make a FRPG that has a significant place for activities like clerics praying and engaging in ritual, fighters tilting and riding, MUs engaging in magical experimentation, and thieves casing buildings and planning their jobs. Burning Wheel provides an example. But Gygax's real point in these passages, at least it seems to me, is that in his (and Arneson's) game, the goal of play is gaining XP, and the development of the player character by earning XP from gold is part of the feedback to and reward gained by the player, and hence we ignore the "realistic" stuff he describes.

And in his (and Arneson's) game, the character - defined primarily by class and secondarily by race - is the role that is adopted to pursue that goal. This is reinforced by PHB p 106, which first sets out the major aims of each character class,

clerics' major aims are to use their spell abilities to aid during any given encounter, fighters aim to engage in combat, magic-users aim to cast spells, thieves aim to make gain by stealth, and monks aim to use their unusual talents to come to successful ends​

and then says,

If characters gain treasure by pursuit of their major aims, then they are generally entitled to a full share of earned experience points awarded by the DM.​

The goal of play - treasure acquisition - is clearly defined; and the major aims of each class - the "role" - are the means that each player adopts to pursuing that goal.
For better or worse, treasure acquisition was certainly a goal of play as written. I don't think we disgaree much here, though I think disucssion of the get-loot goal is tangential at best when considering the degree of in-character "theatrical" roleplaying that occurred.
The idea of class-as-role, establishing "major aims" or means whereby a player obtains treasure, is further reinforced by the discussion of rating play in the DMG, p 86:

Consider the natural functions of each class of character. . . . Briefly assess the performance of each character after an adventure. Did he or she perform basically in the character of his or her class? . . . Clerics who refuse to help and heal or do not remain faithful to their deity,​
fighters who hang bock from combat or attempt to steal, or fail to boldly lead, magic-users who seek to engage in melee or ignore magic items they could employ in crucial situations, thieves who boldly engage in frontal attacks or refrain from acquisition of an extra bit of treasure when the opportunity presents itself, "cautious" characters who do not pull their own weight - these are all clear examples of a POOR rating.​

The fit between the PHB description of class roles, and of the DMG description of failures to perform those roles, is clear.
Another rule we dropped like a hot potato; this one was gone even before my time. The role-play-rating system used to determine a character's training costs isn't exactly Gygax's best moment, and is wide open to DM playing favourites among players (or characters).
 

Passages like these are a large part of why we ve-ery long ago dropped xp-for-gp; about 8 years later, 2e followed our lead and also dropped it. And the DMG passage very nicely describes my own rationale for how stay-at-home (a.k.a. non-adventuring) members of classes can and do slowly gain xp over time.

<snip>

Another rule we dropped like a hot potato; this one was gone even before my time. The role-play-rating system used to determine a character's training costs isn't exactly Gygax's best moment, and is wide open to DM playing favourites among players (or characters).
Yes, I know that you don't use those rules. You have made the sort of change to the game that I flagged in my post.

But my post was about what role meant in the game Arneson and Gygax came up with, not the approaches of other games in the neighbourhood.
 

Upthread there was some discussion on both (i) why do longterm (often exclusive) D&D players struggle to onboard and operationalize PBtA/FitD (and kindred) games' play loop and system architecture and (ii) what is happening at the GM level in the intervening steps of that play loop. I'm entering into this discussion just to throw some words at that.

There are multiple reasons for this, but I'm only going to go into one of the biggest:

Whether the GM is framing a macro-scene/conflict, an individual obstacle, or rendering consequences to some form of resolution, the GM is integrating inviolable systemic guidance and constraints while simultaneously evaluating and filtering multiple variables (typically dependent though not always) from a constellation of prospects that is often double digits.

If you don't have both exposure to (a) the integrated, intricate, and inviolable nature of a system (like AW) and (b) the particular cognitive space it requires to undertake, then what the GM is doing (or what you're supposed to be doing if you're GMing) might seem convoluted or even impenetrable. Its not actually convoluted or impenetrable once you fully assimilate (a) and have enough exposure to (b) (whether as a GM or as a player), but there is enough evidence in the wild that this can happen for particular cohorts of gamers...though the question remains whether the scale that this happens is after actually playing...or mostly just from reading the text (or, worse still, merely reading someone's abstract about the text).

A few examples (of which there are plenty more) or preconception/orientation that lead to struggle/discord:

* One thinks that (what they might call "naturalistic") fiction & gamestate-credible situation-framing and consequence-rendering is always (or even typically) a very narrow subset of prospects (perhaps 1 or 2).

* One thinks that codified parts of system (like agenda and principles and engine architecture and protagonist motivations and concerns about a strategically or tactically compelling decision-space) are perpetually opt-in, GM discretion based on their personal story imperatives, rather than filters that play must always and ever attend to at every moment of GM decision-making. Put another way, its the "games are discrete tool-kits for GMs to decide how to use and how to discard at their discretion" refrain.

* One thinks that overt meta-conversation that attends to the needs of play is either (a) insincere and setting up some kind of gotcha/coup, or (b) harmful to their experience of play.
 

post-truth attitude
Mod Note:

Your rhetorical framing here is not as cleverly cloaked as you think it is. People can disagree with each other- even you- without playing fast & loose with the truth.

Keep seasoning your posts here with spicy bits like this, and you’ll find yourself exiled from the kitchen.
 

In the quote upthread from Men & Magic, we see "Before they begin, players must decide what role they will play in the campaign, humans or otherwise, fighter, cleric, or magic-user."

This is echoed in Gygax's PHB, where (p 18) it says that "The approach you wish to take to the game, how you believe you can most successfully meet the challenges which it poses, and which role you desire to play are dictated by character class (or multi-class)."

I think these passages make it pretty clear that the core of the "role" in roleplaying is functional - what abilities does the player's character enjoy, in the fiction? The character goals are all taken to be the same, namely, acquiring loot such that the player can gain levels by earning XP. This is why we see, in the PHB (p 106), the following:

Experience is the measure of a character's ability in his or her chosen profession, the character's class. . . .

Gaining experience points through the acquisition of gold pieces and by slaying monsters might be questioned by some individuals as non-representative of how an actual character would become more able in his or her class. Admittedly, this is so . . . This is a game, however, a fantasy game, and suspension of disbelief is required. . . . While praying and religious-oriented acts are more properly the activities for which a cleric would gain experience points, this is not the stuff of exciting swords & sorcery adventure. So too, fighters need physical training and weapons practice, magic-users long hours of study in tomes of arcane lore, and thieves the repetition of their manual skills and discernitory prowess; but none of this is suitable to gaming. It is, therefore, discarded and subsumed as taking place on a character's "off hours".​

The DMG (p 86) similarly says that

Players who bolk at equating gold pieces to experience points should be gently but firmly reminded that in a game certain compromises must be made. While it is more "realistic" for clerics to study holy writings, pray, chant, practice self-discipline, etc. to gain experience, it would not make a playable game roll along. Similarly, fighters should be exercising, riding, smiting pelts, tilting at the lists, and engaging in weapons practice of various sorts to gain real expertise (experience); magic-users should be deciphering old scrolls, searching ancient tomes, experimenting alchemically, and so forth; while thieves should spend their off-hours honing their skills, "casing" various buildings, watching potential victims, and carefully planning their next "job". All very realistic but conducive to non-game boredom!​

Of course, and somewhat contra Gygax, it is possible to make a FRPG that has a significant place for activities like clerics praying and engaging in ritual, fighters tilting and riding, MUs engaging in magical experimentation, and thieves casing buildings and planning their jobs. Burning Wheel provides an example. But Gygax's real point in these passages, at least it seems to me, is that in his (and Arneson's) game, the goal of play is gaining XP, and the development of the player character by earning XP from gold is part of the feedback to and reward gained by the player, and hence we ignore the "realistic" stuff he describes.

And in his (and Arneson's) game, the character - defined primarily by class and secondarily by race - is the role that is adopted to pursue that goal. This is reinforced by PHB p 106, which first sets out the major aims of each character class,

clerics' major aims are to use their spell abilities to aid during any given encounter, fighters aim to engage in combat, magic-users aim to cast spells, thieves aim to make gain by stealth, and monks aim to use their unusual talents to come to successful ends​
.

and then says,

If characters gain treasure by pursuit of their major aims, then they are generally entitled to a full share of earned experience points awarded by the DM.​

The goal of play - treasure acquisition - is clearly defined; and the major aims of each class - the "role" - are the means that each player adopts to pursuing that goal.

The idea of class-as-role, establishing "major aims" or means whereby a player obtains treasure, is further reinforced by the discussion of rating play in the DMG, p 86:

Consider the natural functions of each class of character. . . . Briefly assess the performance of each character after an adventure. Did he or she perform basically in the character of his or her class? . . . Clerics who refuse to help and heal or do not remain faithful to their deity,
fighters who hang bock from combat or attempt to steal, or fail to boldly lead, magic-users who seek to engage in melee or ignore magic items they could employ in crucial situations, thieves who boldly engage in frontal attacks or refrain from acquisition of an extra bit of treasure when the opportunity presents itself, "cautious" characters who do not pull their own weight - these are all clear examples of a POOR rating.​

The fit between the PHB description of class roles, and of the DMG description of failures to perform those roles, is clear.

The only personality-type idea that figures in the account of role given by Gygax is alignment. We see this in the quoted passage from Men & Magic (about it being "necessary to determine what stance the character will take"); and again in the DMG p 86 discussion of rating players, where - in addition to the class role points that I've quoted just above - Gygax says that the GM must

Consider also the professed alignment of each character. Briefly assess the performance of each character after an adventure. . . . Were his or her actions in keeping with his or her professed alignment?​

None of the above is to deny the point that, in reality, many D&Ders (thought as @AbdulAlhazred points out, not necessarily all of them) started playing their characters more elaborately. And Gygax himself tips his hat to this point in the intro to his PHB, where (p 7) he writes that "Each of you will become an artful thespian as time goes by", although the same sentence goes on immediately to set out the goal of play: "and you will acquire gold, magic items, and great renown". Classic D&D, as presented by Gygax in his rulebooks (and in Moldvay's version of it), will need pretty extensive supplementation to be played with the goal being something other than the acquisition of treasure from dungeons and the like. The original OA provides an example of what such supplementation might look like (including variant XP rules for some classes), although I think it's still fair to say that the game OA presents is a bit incoherent. Another obvious supplementation, well-known in discussions of high-level classic D&D play, is the addition of genuine wargame rules so that the game shifts from dungeon/hex-crawling to domain management and conquest.

I've played freeform sessions and relatively free-form miniature scenarios where every character has a goal (analogous to your short page of character notes).

I've also seen classic D&D's character and resolution mechanics used for this sort of scenario - eg Lewis Pulsipher's Bar Room Brawl, D&D-style in an early White Dwarf. But these require the sort of supplementation I've described above: writing character goals; setting up possible victory conditions; etc.

This is not essential to, or inherent in, the Arneson-Gygax game.
I played D&D/AD&D(both editions) pretty continuously from 1975 to around 1995. I think the typical pattern in actual playing was that players developed certain characters in more and more elaborate ways over time. You can DEFINITELY see this in the lore of Greyhawk, where the core players each developed one or two powerful iconic characters with highly elaborated goals, styles, and places within the setting. This process must have required perhaps several years to play out, as we see in the 1e PHB 'named spells' and bits of lore pertaining to various iconic GH PCs. Now, that's not to say that any of this was in place of the core paradigm of D&D, accumulation of XP via adventuring and discovering treasure (or to a minor extent killing stuff). But over time each of the players in the core group whom I played with from 1980 onward developed these iconic characters, and I can still name them! Some didn't get a lot of character development, others did, but each one had holdings, followers, goals, etc. D&D is not going to ever foster the sort of exploration of character that more recent narrativist games do, but there was a trajectory, and I think it was at least an understood subtext of the game.
 

@AbdulAlhazred

No disagreement on the trajectory.

But (i) I don't think that that sort of character development is what is being referred to as "role" in Men & Magic or in Gygax's PHB. Both present role in terms of class, and alignment, and to a lesser extent race. The elaborately-developed character is more of a by-product, or an emergent result, of the underlying features of the game we've discussed in this thread: (a) the game takes place in imagination, with imagination (constrained, obviously, by situation and by role) as the limit on what can happen; and (b) players engaging the shared fiction by declaring actions for a particular character who is "theirs".

And (ii) I think that there is a significant degree of system-level collision between some of the core game processes, and that emergent orientation towards character. The XP rules are probably the most obvious, and it's no great shock that the original OA had to tweak them in various ways, and that 2nd ed AD&D changed them wholesale. The action resolution rules are another, as they are not all that robust once the situation moves beyond the core focus of dungeon crawling: 2nd ed AD&D just punts on this, while 3E, 4e and 5e D&D all respond in various ways.

The struggle over (ii) - manifested in everything from Why does V:tM, or even Traveller for that matter, need elaborate combat rules?, to the declining proportion of D&D rulebook real estate devoted to doors over the editions, through to the invention of non-map-and-key techniques for presenting situations, and the various sorts of approaches that now exist to social conflict resolution - can be seen as defining much of the history and direction of RPG development over the past four to five decades.
 

4 pages in... and my takeaway so far is that Pemerton is attempting to shame anyone not using RPGs as fallbacks for pure narrative play.

And that several others are in denial that for some, D&D, even from the GM seat, can be a pure wargame.

There's no bright line between the two, but a spectrum, and this is the third or fourth thread this quarter where the thread comes across to me as an attempt to claim there's some privileged ideal playstyle.
 

4 pages in... and my takeaway so far is that Pemerton is attempting to shame anyone not using RPGs as fallbacks for pure narrative play.

And that several others are in denial that for some, D&D, even from the GM seat, can be a pure wargame.

There's no bright line between the two, but a spectrum, and this is the third or fourth thread this quarter where the thread comes across to me as an attempt to claim there's some privileged ideal playstyle.
This is nonsense. Half the thread has been me arguing that D&D has been a RPG from the start, using map-and-key techniques as the means for presenting situation.
 

Remove ads

Top