RPGNow Expanding...

[Jraynack]

The complaint is typically that the "hobbyist" products directly compete with (and may actually draw sales away from) products from the more invested vendor. I can empathize with the bigger vendors a bit, but fact is, that kind of competition is the reality of a free market.

I've heard the rhetoric of "it's unfair that small frys have to compete with the big names!" epoused in these discussion threads, but frankly, the statement I've heard more often from well-selling vendors is "it's unfair for us who depend on this income to have to compete with the small frys!". So, I guess all the bigger names will stop whining.

Alea Publishing Group is a "small fry" at the big end of the stick and we felt that it was not the competition that concerned us (we had to work a little harder to carve out our niche and we are still carving) because we feel competition keeps our products innovative and fresh.

Our concern was mainly for the overall customers for RPGNow.com and the PDF Industry in general. It has had a bad wrap in the beginning as not having the quality of print product from really "big fish". It has taken a long time to shake off that stigma and as a whole we are all still shaking.

I have read a lot of reviews from customers feeling that they were completely ripped off by a company or particular product and a lot of these were usually from the "small fry" companies. Are thought is "Why would a customer take a risk on us, if they are getting ripped off at the same site we are selling at?"

Though we really didn't participate in discussion about the split (we felt that it was ultimately James's choice), I feel that this will actually be good for those "small fry" companies to improve upon their products with the overall quality a pdf product should have in order to get to the featured site.

But I do agree with you about "proving" yourself as a new company. I believe that as a company, you have a good first product (something that meets overall quality standards -layout, writing, EDITING, artwork, and other things that make a good pdf) you should start out at the featured site.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

So, you do think the market should be bastioned against new publishers!

Nigel

No. There is a difference between an arrangement designed to keep new publishers out enitrely and something that keeps the Average Joe who knows absolutely nothing about putting together a quality product from tossing his hat into the ring.

I've edited and done layout on a number of projects for other companies that have recently come into the PDF industry and have no previous experience--not even as freelancers. What they have is a good idea (hopefully), but no ability to write, draw or prepare a project. That's not a publisher trying to get into the industry. That's some guy off the street trying to pass himself as a publisher and charging people money for it. That dilutes the market and reflects poorly on everyone else.

I was (and still largely am) against the splitting of RPGnow into two sites. Anyone of RPGnow's publishers who have been keeping track of what's been said on both sides since RPGnow announced this will know that because I was rather vocal about my opinions. However, the one thing I can't dispute is that there needs to be some measure of control that ensures only the people who have taken the time and effort to develop their knowledge and skills prior to tossing their hat into the ring can step up and start publishing. Without any manner of quality control, it becomes that much harder for the people who want to make a real attempt at it to be taken seriously.

So on, bastioning an industry against new publishers is definately not the same as wanting to ensure the market isn't damaged by letting every person with a desktop have a go at it.

 

[Vigilance]

Question - and sorry if this got covered already; A new publisher starts off on the RPG Edge site, if I understand this correctly.

However, I haven't read anything (or just missed it) that states the conditions - if any - that the new publisher could "earn" his/her place among the RPG Main Site.

So, here's the question.

What's it take (if it's even possible) for a new publisher - or even an already-established publisher - to move from the Edge to the Main Site?


Peterson

There is going to be growth from Edge to the main RPG site, drawn from those edge publishers who distinguish themselves through quality and strong sales (which honestly tend to go hand in hand in most instances).

Chuck

 

[Roudi]

I guess now the bigger publishers can quit whining about the "hobbyists" stealing their sales.

Alea Publishing Group is a "small fry" at the big end of the stick and we felt that it was not the competition that concerned us (we had to work a little harder to carve out our niche and we are still carving) because we feel competition keeps our products innovative and fresh.

Believe me, I'm well aware the story is different on the other end of the vendor divide. I really only intended my comment for two specific people, in whose presence I witnessed them complaining about said "hobbyist" vendors, who they perceived as cutting into their business without having as much of a financial investment in their products.

So, all I really intended was to give two pouty, whiny, arrogant prima-donnas a well-deserved ribbing.

 

[Jraynack]

Believe me, I'm well aware the story is different on the other end of the vendor divide. I really only intended my comment for two specific people, in whose presence I witnessed them complaining about said "hobbyist" vendors, who they perceived as cutting into their business without having as much of a financial investment in their products.

So, all I really intended was to give two pouty, whiny, arrogant prima-donnas a well-deserved ribbing.

Well, I hate to say, that I know what (who) you mean. I really don't know what the "big" fries make near the top of the lists, but squabbling over "hobbyist" vendors is a waste of time for the money involved in producing pdfs.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Believe me, I'm well aware the story is different on the other end of the vendor divide. I really only intended my comment for two specific people, in whose presence I witnessed them complaining about said "hobbyist" vendors, who they perceived as cutting into their business without having as much of a financial investment in their products.

So, all I really intended was to give two pouty, whiny, arrogant prima-donnas a well-deserved ribbing.

Your statement is addressed to a false commentary, however. The "big" publshers don't mainly complain about the competition, but rather the damage to their branding. In fact, that's why most ofthe 'big" print companies have left RPGnow: it doesn't do much for their branding to be selling the PDF version of the product they've spent thousands of dollars developing and producing on the same page as the d20 product put out by the guy who clearly has never read the OGL, the guy who took a free download directly from WotC's site only to slap their own art into it and sell it as theirs, or the guy who decided it would be good to save cash and have the PDF illustrated by a buddy who can do little better than stick figures. How many brand name companies in other industries would let their company sell to buyers who wanted to put their product in a dollar store? Quite simply, they wouldn't because it would damage their brand.

I personally still have major issues with the split and am not its biggest fan--I think there could have been other steps before going to this point, but it doesn't mean that one ignores the fact that there WAS/IS a problem of this sort in the PDF rpg industry and that it is the reason why the "big" guys complain, not because of any competition because, let's face it, VERY few of the little guys are actually competing for sales with those companies. It's not arrogant for anyone to say that. It's them bluntly stating a legitimate problem many of the smaller publishers would rather not recognize; so many of the small guys have no other experience in the industry that they take criticism as a personal insult and so their latest product has seen no changes or improvement over their earliest. Many of the neophyte publishers do things like use free Geocity accounts for their "company' web sites or have hand-drawn and scanned logos because there are a lot of people who want to earn money from PDF rpgs but nowhere near enough of them realize they have to spend some money first! That is not the sort of thing that an established publisher wants his product sitting next to, and rightly so--it certainly isn't arrogance for them to say it or for them to desire not to sell their product next to something that looks like it was put together for use in one's house campaign rather than sold as a product.

Despite my worries about other problems that may arise because of the split, hopefully the desire to move up to the new site will be sufficient incentive for some people to realize that their ego has little place in a serious business, even one that can be as fun as producing rpgs.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Well, I hate to say, that I know what (who) you mean. I really don't know what the "big" fries make near the top of the lists, but squabbling over "hobbyist" vendors is a waste of time for the money involved in producing pdfs.

That's because for most of the "big" guys it's not the money that is an issue. My product, for example, was good enough to stay on the original site but I still cannot even remotely be considered a competitor to Green Ronin, Eden Studios, White Wolf and the like, be it their print products or PDFs. We're still talking to entirely different leagues. What they are concerned about, however, is how it reflects on their companies and product branding if they have their product selling directly alongside the guy who didn't know enough about the OGL to know you can't publish unlicensed d20 Call of Cthulhu products or the guy who didn't want to spend the money on an artist and doesn't know anything about layout, so his cover is nothing more than a solid color with 12pt white lettering at the top in Times New Roman because that's his default settings for Word.

 

[HalWhitewyrm]

For some interesting viewpoints to the RPGnow Press Release, check out this week's episode of the Ogre Cave Audio Report (week of 10/1/05). They talk about the press release, and while the initial impression they get is very positive (the language of the press release was very encouraging and well done) the general opinion is that they just don't get it.

It's just interesting to hear reactions from people not involved at all with the site who heard about the news the way it was meant to be known about, via the official press release.

 

[Roudi]

Your statement is addressed to a false commentary, however.

Oh, totally. That was the biggest irony of seeing these complaints... the "hobbyists" these two were deriding were not their main competition at all. It was like watching a bear complain about gnats while ignoring the other bear trying to encroach upon it's territory. Not to imply that smaller vendors are gnats, though... it's just an analogy.

 

[malladin]

No. There is a difference between an arrangement designed to keep new publishers out enitrely and something that keeps the Average Joe who knows absolutely nothing about putting together a quality product from tossing his hat into the ring.

So on, bastioning an industry against new publishers is definately not the same as wanting to ensure the market isn't damaged by letting every person with a desktop have a go at it.

Cheers for the clarification Steve! my next question would be how do new people get support from the industry to learn, theres not a lot of support out there from the existing publishers, lets face it this thread has ably demonstrated the importence of the 'my bottom dollar is all that matters and its about the business not the community 'attitude is prevailent among a lot of people. Trial and error is a great teacher and if quality reflects sales then people should soon adjust and other companies should be prepaired to weather some affect on their sales for the good of the hobby, that ones going to be popular maybe more lessons in why no one who was helped by the opportunities and support given them owes anyone else anything. It worries me some people think newbies, or indeed the 'small fish' shouldnt have the opportunity to experiment and learn. I agree there has to be a balance, but where. I don't want to buy s**t products more than the next person, but I've had a few from the shelf of my FLGS. Nor do I want to be ripped off by someone who doesn't care, but its been said earlier by Chuck your not likely to make the effort to publish if you don't care, except in the case of rip off merchants. Appearence, layout etc are important but won't make a poor product good, nor will great production cover up c**p. Given the interesting comments from you so far I'd like to know what you think ?