RPGs and doubling scales

[Morrus]

I'm playing with some numbers (inspired by seeing my old copy of DC Heroes on the shelf) and applying them to RPG characters.

This is going to need so much tweaking!

So this is a doubling of numbers sequence. Each score is twice the one before.

If you assign this sequence to everything in the universe -- strength, speed, distance, weight, wealth, energy, etc. all we need to do to compare two things is compare their scores in those areas. An RPG character lifting a log compares strength with weight. If it's higher, he succeeds. If it's lower, he can't do it. If it's the same, he has an even chance (roll a d6 or toss a coin). If two characters are competing, two scores are compared, and the higher wins. If they have the same score, they both roll 1d6 and the highest wins (or its a draw).

This scale allows for superheroes. The average human adult looks like this. For simplicity, we'll stick to metric if real world units apply. Some things don't have units (brains, cool, etc.) Let's arbitrarily peg adult human average as 5. That might change; it's just a number I picked.

Brawn 5
Speed 5
Brains 5
Cool 5

Now lets add a superhero. He has heat vision, like Cyclops. And he's quite clever. His scores are:

Brawn 5
Speed 5
Brains 6
Cool 5
Heat Vision 8

His heat vision is pretty powerful. Eight times (128) as damaging as an average human's strength (16) is damaging.

So how does combat work? It's super simple. All conflicts (races, fights, chess games) are one quick comparison. Higher score wins. Equal scores roll off. Loser is defeated. Very simple.

Cyclops blasts a door (6) with his heat vision (8). It blasts open. He blasts a vault's door (8) with his heat vision (8). He has to roll off; 50/50 chance of doing it.

What attributes are there? There are an infinite number of attributes. If you can think of it, it's an attribute. Basic humans have those four attributes, but monsters and machines and superheroes may have others, like Cyclops' Heat Vision.

Who decides which attribute? Assuming this game has a GM, it's up to the GM which two attributes are compared. If the GM needs the attribute of an object, just look up the weight in kg, and bingo! You can see its Weight attribute. The average weight of a car is about 1500kg, which gives it a Weight attribute of 12. Somebody with Brawn 13 can lift it easily. A millionaire has a Wealth attribute of 21.

There are some drawbacks to this. Unless your scores are equal, all conflicts are predetermined. Hulk will always beat Flash in a weightlifting contest, Flash will always beat Hulk in a footrace. It might be worth considering allowing for contested rolls if opponents are within 1 attribute point, but maybe they roll two dice? Maybe extend that, and you get an extra die for every point higher? The tortoise did beat the hair, after all.

 

[Nikosandros]

The Ascendant RPG, which was recently kickstarted work on this principle.

 

[Morrus]

Sure. So does DC Heroes. I like the elegance of doubling scales.

 

[Fireball36]

With this scale, humans would tend to fall between the scores of 5 to 9. 10 would be the maximum that I would allow for humans anyway. What makes games appealing to many, however, is the opportunity to roll dice. It's that element of chance that brings gamers (and gamblers) to tables. So while the doubling scale is fine, it's how you translate it into dice rolls that's really important. W.O.I.N., Hero System and Shadowrun, for example, have you roll another d6 for each point in your score. Since I am most familiar with the HERO System, I would give Cyclops an 8d6 energy blast for his heat vision if I did a direct comparison to what you gave him (an 8). I would enjoy rolling 8d6 more than just comparing my 8 blast to the goon's 3 armor jackets.

 

[Morrus]

With this scale, humans would tend to fall between the scores of 5 to 9. 10 would be the maximum that I would allow for humans anyway. What makes games appealing to many, however, is the opportunity to roll dice. It's that element of chance that brings gamers (and gamblers) to tables.

Sure. But there are diceless RPGs. This is just a thought experiment; it doesn't have to dominate the mass market. Rolling 8d6 for Cyclops doesn't simulate a doubling well, and is just Simply6, which I've already written!

 

[Tun Kai Poh]

Doubling scale works well for supers, although in DC Heroes/Batman RPG, street-level characters all tended to look the same. There's hardly any difference in stats between Commissioner Gordon and Harvey Bullock.

Raising the default stat for average people might help with that, though.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The tortoise beat the hare through perseverance but mostly because the hare was foolish and decided to take a nap during the race.

I would go the Amber Diceless route of resolution and have the higher value win unless the lower number comes up with a way to address the imbalance. Hulk isn't going to win a race against Flash unless he knocks Flash out as the race starts (or something). As long as Flash takes the race seriously and Hulk doesn't cheat (and no outside forces intercede) there's simply no way for Hulk to win.

That said, the area I feel this system of doubling fails at is with similar characters. Cyclops may not have super human strength, but he's trained significantly and should arguably be stronger than an average adult. If Joe Average challenges him to a benching competition at the local gym, it shouldn't be 50/50.

What if there were an advancement system of increments that also granted an edge in competitions against similar individuals? The number of increments could be equivalent to the difference in multiplier between this rank and the next. Perhaps someone who's past the 50% point can even challenge someone of the next rank, albeit at some type of disadvantage?

So in this case Joe Average might have a Strength of 5.0 whereas Cyclops has 5.6 (he's not quite halfway to 6 Strength). If he has a lifting contest with Joe, Cyclops gets a +6 to his roll (or something). But if he goes up against someone with 6 Strength, he'll automatically lose assuming all else is equal. However, if he trains hard and gets his strength up to 5.8, the disparity is lessened and he can actually make the attempt, though this time the strong guy gets a +8. And if either of them try to challenge Hulk, who is probably Strength 20 or higher, they'd both lose because it's no contest.

Additionally, if Cyclops trains at the gym like a beast and gets his Strength up to 5.16, his strength is now 6 (because 32 - 16 is 16).

This is all just spitballing. If you prefer a less fiddly resolution mechanism you could use some kind of advantage/disadvantage mechanism in lieu of the bonus.

As I see it, the biggest strength of this doubling approach is that it makes resolution between different power scales very easy. Hawkeye arm wrestling Superman is no different from Superman arm wrestling a toddler (Superman wins unless he lets the other guy win or something like Kryptonite is involved).

Its biggest weakness is that it loses nuance between characters who are roughly equivalent (answering the question of, if Cyclops and Nightcrawler arm wrestle, who wins). A coin flip is admittedly a simple resolution mechanism, but not necessarily a satisfying one if the player of Cyclops has been having him hit the gym of late.

 

[Morrus]

Doubling scale works well for supers, although in DC Heroes/Batman RPG, street-level characters all tended to look the same. There's hardly any difference in stats between Commissioner Gordon and Harvey Bullock.

Raising the default stat for average people might help with that, though.

Yes, that's definitely true. I wouldn't use this scale for non-supers games.

 

[Umbran]

There are some drawbacks to this. Unless your scores are equal, all conflicts are predetermined. Hulk will always beat Flash in a weightlifting contest, Flash will always beat Hulk in a footrace. It might be worth considering allowing for contested rolls if opponents are within 1 attribute point

So, for this, we can look at the old FASERIP Marvel Superheroes game.

The game had rankings. They were not strictly doubling, but they did have basically this feature:

If a target/task was rated two ranks below you, you did it automatically. If it was two ranks above you, it was impossible.

From there, the game had green, yellow, and red levels of success. If a thing was one rank below you, you needed to achieve just a green success to beat it. If it was equal to you, you needed a yellow success, if it was a rank above you, you needed a red success.

So, the Hulk had an Unearthly strength. The Thing from the Fantastic Four had a Monstrous strength. By your system, the Thing could never beat the Hulk in an arm wrestle. In this system, the Hulk would usually win, but the Thing could dig down deep and win every once in a while. And, it could take some time to resolve - the Hulk is stronger, sure, but you could have a round or two where there was not one clear winner.

 

[Guest 6801328]

So what exactly are the powers of 2 used for, other than a general sense of "X + 1 is twice X"?

You had two examples: the weight of the car (log base 2 of 1500 is between 11 and 12) and a millionaire (log base 2 of a million is about 20). But what are the units for Agility? What's the agility required to do a back handspring over a car?

Or is just estimating? E.g., a typical human (5) can't really do a back handspring, so maybe it takes a 6 to do a normal back handspring on flat ground. A car isn't THAT much higher than flat ground, so twice as hard again feels about right. Therefore it's a 7.

A back handspring over a delivery truck, on the other hand, is an 8.

Is that the gist of it?