RPGs are ... Role Playing Games

[The Shaman]

What I described fits the broad definition of "improvisation" in the English language. This was my point; if you use a very narrow definition of a word, you shouldn't be surprised when someone uses the word in its broader sense.

This insistence on using words in their "broader sense" seems to be the source of a lot of confusion and acrimony.

How 'bout we try for a little precision instead?

There is no standard for descriptive RPG language, so just because a blogger calls it one thing doesn't mean I have to do it as well, or even agree that the term fits.

There is a consensus around many of the terms used by gamers. Illusionism isn't the random invention of a lone blogger, and I think you've been knocking around different game forums long enough to know that. It's also a spot-on description of what you labeled "improvisation."

 

[billd91]

This insistence on using words in their "broader sense" seems to be the source of a lot of confusion and acrimony.

How 'bout we try for a little precision instead?There is a consensus around many of the terms used by gamers. Illusionism isn't the random invention of a lone blogger, and I think you've been knocking around different game forums long enough to know that. It's also a spot-on description of what you labeled "improvisation."

Can we put a sock in this debate? There was nothing wrong with the term improvisation. We don't exactly have to appeal to obscure blogs hardly anyone has ever heard of to define our terms when English suffices.

 

[Scribble]

"... Role playing games are much like radio adventures, except for one important detail: they're interactive. One player provides the narrative and some of the dialogue, but the other players, instead of just sitting and envisioning what's going on actually participate. Each player controls the actions of a character in the story, decides on his actions, supplies his character's dialogue, and makes decisions based on the characters personality and his current game options..."

-Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia, 1991


Guess there's SOME precedence for calling it a story...

GURPS also calls it a story.

 

[Celebrim]

Can we put a sock in this debate? There was nothing wrong with the term improvisation. We don't exactly have to appeal to obscure blogs hardly anyone has ever heard of to define our terms when English suffices.

While I think that if you are going to use improvisation to have a special meaning you should set out that special meaning and not quibble when someone uses the term according to its common usage, it's not like the term 'Illusionism' as it refers to designing and managing RPG's is itself obscure. The fact that the blog that provides a definition of a peice of technical jargon is 'obscure' is simply an ad hominem attack on the blog.

That said, while 'Illusionism' is a well defined term of art, I know of no such special definition for 'Improvisation'. Any time the term 'improvisation' is used, I would first assume the common usage of the word:

"the act of composing, performing or delivering without previous preparation"

Now interestingly, 'Illusionism' is not often 'Improvisation', but the two terms aren't mutually exclusive. The technique Fifth Element describes seems to me like it is arguably both. It is both composing and delivering without previous preparation, and it is altering the unpainted part of the world for metagame reasons in order to maintain the appearance of versimilitude, coherence, player agency, and/or player success where none actually exists.

 

[Celebrim]

Guess there's SOME precedence for calling it a story...

GURPS also calls it a story.

While that's a great quote and I thank you for it, I think you are probably missing some of the nuance of what is being debated here.

The question is not whether there is a story, but what it comes from and in particular at what point in the game does the story come into being - before the session or after it?

 

[Scribble]

While that's a great quote and I thank you for it, I think you are probably missing some of the nuance of what is being debated here.

The question is not whether there is a story, but what it comes from and in particular at what point in the game does the story come into being - before the session or after it?

Maybe...

I think it's both.

But in the end, it doesn't matter much to me, as it won't really effect my game.

 

[Fifth Element]

While I think that if you are going to use improvisation to have a special meaning you should set out that special meaning and not quibble when someone uses the term according to its common usage, it's not like the term 'Illusionism' as it refers to designing and managing RPG's is itself obscure.

I agree. I don't object to the characterization of my technique as illusionism; I object to the idea that it cannot also be called improvisation. As you rightly point out, it does fit both.

and it is altering the unpainted part of the world for metagame reasons in order to maintain the appearance of versimilitude, coherence, player agency, and/or player success where none actually exists.

I wouldn't put it quite like that, though. Generally it's just because the player's idea was better than mine.

But we should probably leave this in the other thread where it started.

 

[Hussar]

Maybe...

I think it's both.

But in the end, it doesn't matter much to me, as it won't really effect my game.

I think this is an interesting point. Does it have to be mutually exclusive where the "story" arises in the game? Is it not more true that story comes about at every point, from conception to the end of play? Granted the story isn't "finished" until it happens at the table, but, most of the elements of the story are there even before play starts.

I mean, look at the Paizo Dungeon adventures. Every module opened with a plot synopsis - what was the most likely chain of events in the given module. If there is no story at all before play begins, how can you make any sort of synopsis of the story?

 

[McTreble]

I've been singing the praises of RPGs (specifically DnD) for years and I actively avoid comparing the game to anything else, relishing with a glint in my eye and saying "It's not like anything you've ever played." Cause it's not.

 

[Celebrim]

I think this is an interesting point. Does it have to be mutually exclusive where the "story" arises in the game?

No, I don't think it does. There are certainly tables that play with a story mostly composed before play. (If you've played a published adventure path, you're one). There are tables like The Shaman's where no story exists at all before hand. There is a big continium in the middle. And even in that continium, there might be alot of variation in how they achieve the mixture. For example, one table might bounce back and forth between the two extremes, using entirely scenario/plot driven adventures on the one hand and agreeing to ride the rails, and then afterwards spend sessions improvising up a set of encounters starting from setting information alone. Others may use a blend of the two, for example, setting up a detailed urban or wilderness setting and mostly sandboxing while integrating an event driven story line in the background as an overarching metaplot. Others set up sandboxes with hooks, and players go and explore until they find a hook that sets off a series of preplanned events (alot of sandbox style cRPGs set up worlds more or less like that, and the PnP version works well too).

...but, most of the elements of the story are there even before play starts.

I mean, look at the Paizo Dungeon adventures. Every module opened with a plot synopsis - what was the most likely chain of events in the given module. If there is no story at all before play begins, how can you make any sort of synopsis of the story?

You can't. And yet, as The Shaman insists, it still moves. Published modules have particular constraints and have developed sets of expectations on the part of the buyers. There are certain styles of games that you can't fit into a 32 or 64 page description. By no means however does everyone play games that resemble published modules.